Future Team Selection Process

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Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Thu 14 Mar - 9:54

Hi all,

as you experienced this year, we have begun to open up the process of team selection and have tried to make it a bit more transparent and reveal some background information. For the future we would like to continue with this process and involve the community/players even further. In this regard, the council (Alan, Xavier, me) has already discussed some ideas, that I would like to share with you and would like to have your opinions on that and some feedback for this years selection process and ofc your ideas as well, so that we can built up a sensible and agreed process for future swiss ETC team selections.

As Switzerland has 3 linguistic regions they should be represented equally in the Swiss ETC team as far as possible.
To this end, I have 2 proposals:

1) The choice of team-members should be done by a council of 3, constituted from a member that represents each linguistic region. Ideally, that representative is elected by the interested playerbase of his linguistic region for example here in the forum.

2) For the future we would like to award each linguistic region at least 2 places in the team, which can be relayed if insufficient players from this region would be interested/eligible in participating. The remaining 2 places (atm) will be selected by the council (see above)

The proposal obviously begs the question, who would be eligible for the team?

I suggest that this should be handled the following way:

1)Interested players would have to make their interest/candidacy known in the ETC forum.
2)These players should actively discuss in the forum and show that they care for ETC related stuff
3)These players should come to at least 2-3 training days or tournaments with ETC rules
4)These players should proof their ability to the council be it by their results in tournaments or during the training days.
5)Ideally, these players should help to improve relations in the Swiss community, help in organising events, help improving the abilities of other players and have sufficient language skills to participate in an international event, which the ETC obviously is.

Point 1-3 are mandatory, while point 4 will be surveyed by the council. The last point is obviously related to “soft skills” but none the less, these can and will make much of a difference for the council.

I am looking forward to your opinions – discuss! Wink

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  darksteve on Thu 14 Mar - 10:27

I quite like this idea and think it is a good step to a more transparent election and a larger pool of interested players.
Are there any thoughts about an election by user/players if several candidates are available for a position?

For example, if 5 players apply for the 2 german positions, will the council elect this 2 by its own or is there a possibility for the community to vote?
In germany that seems to really work and it could maybe be a further possibility for the community to stay toghether.
Did you think about something similar?

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Thu 14 Mar - 10:34

I have thought about that, but the truth is, that the process in Germany is not that simple - the vote can actually be ignored/overruled by the captain.
But yes, it might be an opportunity for the future but having a community that is rather small and rather inactive, I highly doubt that at the moment a vote for the selected players per region would really add to the result.
But hopefully that will change in the future - we are actually working towards that end, as one can hopefully see.

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Thu 14 Mar - 10:51

I don't like the idea of an open democracy, except in case we use a semi-democratic process (we're swiss after all). And I don't like it for several reasons:

1) It'll be put too much pressure on ranking result, which would mean less fun in tournaments, because good rankings bring you votes.

2) I don't to fall into a "who has more friend" fight

3) Not everyone is able to judge what makes a good ETC player, and the balance of the team could be biased if we find ourselves with 4 dark elves players.


Anyhow, that was for my speech against democracy ^^

What we could imagine is, to grant vote to people who have participating to at least one ETC in the last 3 years -> Semi-indirect democracy. But I think it might end up with quite a mess and some sort of election campaigns that I would like to avoid.
Ironically, I believe it would also close up the ETC process even further, since only members from the pool would be voted imho (friends tricks "you vote for me, I vote for you" sort of)


Basically, here are the four systems of ETC selection I'm aware of:

1) A 8 players team Tournament -> very unlikely to be organized in Switzerland
2) A system based on national ranking -> I don't like it because it would mean the tournament scene becoming too competitive and less fun
3) A system based on vote of the community -> I don't like it for the reasons mentioned aboved
4) A sort of "Council of the Wise" that elects the team members.

I think the last one is the best way to do.
My opinion would be that:

Each region elects its captain, however it wants. This captain will be in the ETC team, unless he wants otherwise.
The council of the 3 captains elects the remaining 5 (or more) players, taking great care in respecting all the criterion that Buchi mentioned.

In fact, it is very close to what we have now (and I think it's a good system) the only difference is that next year the members of the council will be elected Smile




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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Dim on Thu 14 Mar - 11:18

I agree with Xavier. A wise council is better IMO.
It is at least indirect democracy: You vote for one member of the council which then votes for the players. And a limited council is better: you can actually discuss things!

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  darksteve on Thu 14 Mar - 11:19

Thanks for the clarification Smile
I was just wondering, but your reasoning sounds good enough.

Each region elects its captain, however it wants.
There should maybe be a criteria for these captains. Something like at least one ETC experience (if possible). Otherwise there are the same issues you mentioned for the other vote Smile
But I think you'll do it right. All of you have my full trust in this decisions.

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Thu 14 Mar - 12:34

As the representative for the region is democratically elected and his choices afterwards are limited and regulated by his peers, the issues mentioned by Xavier will not really hold true for the council member. Hence I do not think that we necessarily need criteria for their choice.

Nevertheless, if we want some, they basically can be the same as for the players plus probably the crteria Stefan mentioned - having been to an ETC actually.

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Gab on Mon 1 Apr - 11:47

Thanks for this subject buchi, it's very attractive for the next ETC and the swiss-community.

Personnaly, i like the proposition in the last message of Xavier.



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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Pulps on Fri 5 Apr - 12:55

Great effort Buchi!!

From my side, I agree with the intention of a "transparent election" of the future team, and I agree with the system described above by Buchi and Xavier.

On the other hand, I would like to point the attention on the "quality of the team".

You guarantee equal possibilities to access to the three "linguistic parts", but do the three parts have got the same pool of players? The same experience, quality, etc etc...?


Thank you for the efforts in anycase!! Great job so far!

Pulps

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  2dipicche on Fri 5 Apr - 13:09

Pulps wrote:
You guarantee equal possibilities to access to the three "linguistic parts", but do the three parts have got the same pool of players? The same experience, quality, etc etc...?

No, they don't. And this is why I don't like this criteria. Having 2+ players from each region can really be a problem for the team. Just think about what could happens if Pulps or me won't come, there are not other players that could play an ETC at the moment from the italian part os Switzerland.

On the other hand is correct to build a complete and competitive team, not having just 7 captain's friends that leave for a holiday together.


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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  darksteve on Fri 5 Apr - 13:18

Just think about what could happens if Pulps or me won't come, there are not other players that could play an ETC at the moment from the italian part os Switzerland.
That's true, but with the system proposed, there is a motivation for other players from this region to practice more and more. And they have at least to show up at the training days. Of course this doesn't make them as competitive as you (Alan), but in a long term I think it's preferable to build a stronger community.

On the other hand I can see your point when the team has 3 or 4 players which have the ambition to play on the top level and are "handicapped" by 2 weak players (which is enough to make a win really hard to achieve).

In my opinion though it's better to think for the community.

Another thing:
Last year I was the only member of the team which didn't speak french. Of course the team tried to speak english as often as possible, but when we went out for a beer they just went into french and it was not so fun for me to sit there and understand nothing (no offense to the team, that's normal behaviour, I think). And that's somehow more important, that anybody has a funny time.

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Fri 5 Apr - 13:21

On the other hand, I would like to point the attention on the "quality of the team".

You guarantee equal possibilities to access to the three "linguistic parts", but do the three parts have got the same pool of players? The same experience, quality, etc etc...?

I can very well understand your concern here. Atm it seems that the player pool from the italian speaking community is extremely small and though the pool in the german speaking community might be larger, it can be argued that the quality might be lacking.

Nonetheless, the rules state that if not enough reasonable applicants are there , the spots will be given to players from other regions.
Ofc that deals not entirely with the quality aspect. But let us be humble enough to aknowledge that, even under the best circumstances imaginable, Switzerland atm is not going to play for a place on the podium. So personally I do not really see the point in regard to the "quality" aspect.

Imho it is more important to give the players in the different regions an incentive tp become more involved with the tournamnet and ETC scene and by doing so they will become better too and probably the scene in itself will become larger and what could be better than that?

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Fri 5 Apr - 13:42

Pulp raised a good point, and that's why I was opposed to the mandatory 2 spots for each region.
For now we have the possibility to have a competitive captain coming from each region, and imho that should suffice to garantee that each region has its word to say in the matter and would be equally represented in term of quality of players.

Then, I think we should trust those 3 elected people to make the best choice both for the team and the community.

I personally don't want to be forced to play with a swiss-italian average player, when someone better is left at home.
Firstly, it doesn't seem fair for the good player who finds himself sacrified on the shrine of community spirit.
Secondly I'm not spending hours of training and hundred of francs to have problems facing good team because we know that one player is going to lose 0-20 for sure (and I think each of us know the feeling, it's neither nice nor fun)


I think the main purpose of the ETC should not be only to foster the community. It's a goal as well, of course, but the selection process should not fall into this matter, and only this.
Whatever rank we can achieve, the aim is to represent Switzerland and have fun there.
My experience has showed me that bringing less good players (only under the condition that better are available, of course) help achieve neither of the two objectives (the fun and the competiveness)

If the community was putting effort such as helping the team by for instance raising funds to cover travel expenses, then yes, players going to the ETC would be accounted for this.
But since players have to bear the cost, they must also collect the benefits.
And that's why I think that we shouldn't sacrifice the quality of the team we could have, to better fit the cultural mix of the selection.




So my argument is, let's trust the 3 captains to take into considerations the aspirations of both the team and the community.
But guaranteeing a certain amount of spots for each region doesn't bring a lot of things in that matter.
We have more players in swiss german but most of the big tournaments are in the french part, and our best player might be swiss italian though, so well, in those circumstances it's really hard to find a fair number of players per linguistic region, don't you think? Smile

Another thing:
Last year I was the only member of the team which didn't speak french. Of course the team tried to speak english as often as possible, but when we went out for a beer they just went into french and it was not so fun for me to sit there and understand nothing (no offense to the team, that's normal behaviour, I think). And that's somehow more important, that anybody has a funny time.

This is totally true, and it's also taken into consideration when selecting the players Smile
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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Fri 5 Apr - 14:40


Firstly, it doesn't seem fair for the good player who finds himself sacrified on the shrine of community spirit.

Why would it be fair that anyone is left at home, that is interested in participating?
From what quality measure exactly is any claim to participation derrived? As you cannot sacrifice anything without having something that belongs to you.
And even if the community would agree that "quality" would be the paramount principlie in team selection then how would you measure that beyond doubt? This really is ridiculous , as you will never ever have a realistic "quality measure".

Secondly I'm not spending hours of training and hundred of francs to have problems facing good team because we know that one player is going to lose 0-20 for sure (and I think each of us know the feeling, it's neither nice nor fun)

I respect your opinion on that, though I do not agree in the least - especially not with the part in brackets!
If this is really a problem for you I do not really understand, why you bother at all with ETC. Since realistically Team Switzerland atm is not standing a chance against the good teams anyway. That would even be the case when the best players of Switzerland would be there. So that would mean that you will not go this year???


I think the main purpose of the ETC should not be only to foster the community. It's a goal as well, of course, but the selection process should not fall into this matter, and only this.
Whatever rank we can achieve, the aim is to represent Switzerland and have fun there.

The fostering of the community is not the only purpose of the ETC and nobody here is saying so. But what you propose is to make this aspect irrelevant. But how can this be when the team is to represent Switzerland and not only a small geographic part of it? So you are contradicting yourself here.


My experience has showed me that bringing less good players (only under the condition that better are available, of course) help achieve neither of the two objectives (the fun and the competiveness)
Again, I respect your point of view and again I do not share it in the least. But I can see that this comes down to pure personal preference.


If the community was putting effort such as helping the team by for instance raising funds to cover travel expenses, then yes, players going to the ETC would be accounted for this.
But since players have to bear the cost, they must also collect the benefits.
And that's why I think that we shouldn't sacrifice the quality of the team we could have, to better fit the cultural mix of the selection.
And again, what kind of benefits are you talking about? Having achieved place 15 instead of 25? Where exactly is the point in this? Also the benefits you are speaking about only reflect your personal preference. But these are pretty unimportant here (and so are mine) as the team selection and its process should be decided by the community and its players. So yes you and I have in impact, as we are part of this community but only a part and not more.


So my argument is, let's trust the 3 captains to take into considerations the aspirations of both the team and the community.
But guaranteeing a certain amount of spots for each region doesn't bring a lot of things in that matter.
I can tell you, that it makes quite a few differences. Even this year with so few applicants it could have and very likely will make a difference. As you know I am in the council this year so I know what we discussed and how the selection this year worked. It would have been different with the suggested rules as you are very well aware off.
Fact is the council members have their own opinion and agenda on how this should work. Just from the comments in this thread it seems that for example for Xavier it is more important to form the most competitive team available. Imo it is more important to represent the playerbase of Switzerland from all regions. We are both in the council atm so it is already quite obvious that there can be a material impact on the team selection. Thus your argument from above does not really hold true.


We have more players in swiss german but most of the big tournaments are in the french part, and our best player might be swiss italian though, so well, in those circumstances it's really hard to find a fair number of players per linguistic region, don't you think?
Not necessarily. The rules above state who is eligible and who is not. They also state, what happens, if we can not find enough or any players from a linguistic region. So I do not think that this will bea problem. Wink


But in case of doubt, let us put these different principles to vote for the community as a whole and let us see how they think about your quality measurement vs same shares for the linguistic regions and all probably other solutions that might be suggested – that will be very amusing I bet!





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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Fri 5 Apr - 15:13


I will be short (well haha, maybe not so short after all), as we'll still have plenty of time to discuss that matter in the future Smile

I just don't understand why the competitiveness of the team isn't put first. Really.
ETC is a competition, and in any competition your goal is to build the best team in order to get the best result.
That seems so logical for me, that I don't understand some arguments here.

I would take the analogy with the national Swiss football team going to the World Cup.
I don't see for which reason would the team be derived from its initial goal (achieve the best possible result).

That's why I think you're argument of "let all the players vote and see what do they want" is irrelevant here.
Everybody wants to maximize his chance to be at the ETC. And the maximization of all individual wishes will not lead to the most optimal team.
Likewise, I would love to play for Switzerland in the Football World Cup, so if I were given the chance to decide, I would simply choose the solution that would enhance my chance to be in the team, regardless of the competitiveness of the team as a whole.
That's just normal human behaviour, and can be modelised quite easily with mathematic figures.


If really we wanted to be really fair and enhanced the community spirit and let all people discover what the ETC, we would stop building lists for months and making training days, and just send 8 different players each year to have fun.


ETC is a tournament where the goal is to make the best possible result, if it's not, I don't see the point of all our efforts.
All the rest are second ranked objectives, that have to be taken into account of course, but as long as they are in conflict with the main goal.

Having achieved place 15 instead of 25? Where exactly is the point in this?

Well, then why going to a tournament like ETC if it's not to compete with the best one can get out of every warhammer country?
This is here that we disagree the most I think.

The fostering of the community is not the only purpose of the ETC and nobody here is saying so. But what you propose is to make this aspect irrelevant. But how can this be when the team is to represent Switzerland and not only a small geographic part of it? So you are contradicting yourself here.

Did I say it was irrelevant?
Any player in Switzerland is representing Switzerland, no matter from where he comes from. So that argument is irrelevant to me.
Team France this is constitued of almost only players coming from Paris, don't you think they represent France nonetheless?


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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Dim on Sun 7 Apr - 11:08

I don't think we need rigid rules for the constitution of the team.
If one year no good player can come from a given part of Switzerland, I don't want to be obliged to play with Kevin, 14 years old, because the rule says so.

I think that we can trust the wise council to give room to each part of Switzerland, with clear-sightedness. In fact it is one of its main goal. If the council fail and it can't come to a consensus, then we will have to think about a qualification tournament, like in France or other countries. But I think that we could have a better team if we can pick up the best elements of each part of Switzerland, and that the commumity is too small for such nonsense.

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Mon 8 Apr - 9:24

There seem to be quite a few misunderstandings in what there really is in the rules. I will try to explain my point of view again.

If one year no good player can come from a given part of Switzerland, I don't want to be obliged to play with Kevin, 14 years old, because the rule says so.

It is very unlikely that Kevin will be eligible for a space anyway. You as well as Xavier seem to ignore rule 4

4)These players should proof their ability to the council be it by their results in tournaments or during the training days.

But if said Kevin has abided to all the other rules and the wise council has found him worthy according to rule 4, then well, it is not Kevins problem, that you do not want to play with him - it is yours and imo you are free to make your own choice about that, wether you want to come and play alongside Kevin or not.

It is especially funny, as you yourself in your next sentence say:

I think that we can trust the wise council to give room to each part of Switzerland, with clear-sightedness.

Well, if this is so, then why oppose Kevin participating? He had to be elected by the council first according to rule 4…
But there is another point that you mentioned, that I would like to reflect a bit more on, which is giving room to players from each part of Switzerland and about something that was mentioned earlier primarily by Xavier which is “competitiveness as our first goal”.

Just this year, the council disagreed on some choices – it was the same the years before, but on a less serious basis and beside, there was no real council it eventually just established itself that way by chance…
Anyway, over the years I have spoken with quite a few swissgerman players about the ETC. Firstly, it was because I wanted to become involved myself and secondly I was interested in the view of the other players and lastly I wanted to see how the community here in Switzerland worked together.
From what I have gathered, the teambuilding in the previous years, and I mean 6+years, was not very visible and the community ill-informed (if at all). That led to quite a few misunderstandings and prejudices in the community, which are still there. Quite a few people just cannot be bothered to show any interest in it anymore while others feel neglected. But that is wasting potential and decreases the chances of Switzerland as a whole, so even here the “competitiveness goal” is being involved already. And I am not only speaking about this years ETC, I am speaking about the community as a whole, which never was that big in Switzerland anyway.
Realistically, we should think a bit ahead. There were for quite some time more players leaving the tournament business and the game than starting. Some (once?) very good players are only rarely seen playing now (David, Stefan, Olli). New prospects are rare at the moment and from the outside it easily looks like that some friends from the French speaking part of Switzerland are “the ETC team” and it is nearly impossible to enter it. I want to emphasize, that this is not really the case. But look at the teams in the last years and where the majority of participants came from. Also tell me, who bothered to speak with the broader swissgerman community about the ETC selction (besides the usual suspects that have been in the team in years before)?
So now it is probably more easily understandable, that the perception of the community is somewhat different on the matter, than ours might be.
It is my point of view, that we have to show the community, that we care for new players and encourage as many players as possible to try to become involved. That is furthering the community
as a whole, as it encourages the players to become better, they will probably get friends involved to go to tourneys together, who train together and so on and so forth. This is also working towards the competitiveness goal – but not very short term.

ETC is a competition, and in any competition your goal is to build the best team in order to get the best result.
That seems so logical for me, that I don't understand some arguments here.
I would take the analogy with the national Swiss football team going to the World Cup.
I don't see for which reason would the team be derived from its initial goal (achieve the best possible result).


Well, then let my answer with something from sports – there you also very often see young often much less experienced players that get a chance to play in important matches/tourneys in order to get experience even if better but older players are available. So, why is that? Well obviously the reason you ask for is to invest in the teams future. ( At least to me this seems obvious)

That's why I think you're argument of "let all the players vote and see what do they want" is irrelevant here.
Everybody wants to maximize his chance to be at the ETC. And the maximization of all individual wishes will not lead to the most optimal team.

Well, if you put it that way, I could very easily argue, that yourself are saying this to maximise your own chances of staying in the team. I do not believe this to be true, but lets face it, from an outside perspective it can easily look like this:
Xavier knows quite a lot of good players, it is very likely that one or two of his friends will be in the council. If this is the case, it is easier for him to get in the team, if his friends alone decide on who is in the team, leaving other rules aside.
Again – I do not think, that this is the case - but as one can see, it is pointless to argue about the maximisation of potential options on that level, really, no matter how you put it. And yes, the same is true about me, it s very easy to construct several cases where all I am arguing here is just for my personal benefit.

Well, then why going to a tournament like ETC if it's not to compete with the best one can get out of every warhammer country?
This is here that we disagree the most I think.

I do not think that we disagree that much – we have different perspectives though.
What I do not understand, is why you think that the suggested rules, do not allow you to compete at the ETC?
Above, I have tried to show, that rule 4 will already put up a competitive team. Will it be the “best” team? That is, matter of fact, a question of perception, as this years team building efforts for example have shown. I am sure Xavier understands what I am talking about here.

I will stop here for the moment, as the post is getting rather large again…



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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Mon 8 Apr - 10:00


I don't think we disagree that much either Smile

But quickly before raising any further arguments, I would like to strongly oppose this:

from the outside it easily looks like that some friends from the French speaking part of Switzerland are “the ETC team” and it is nearly impossible to enter it.

2007: 8 Swiss Germans
2008: 7 french and 1 german (but only to balance 2007)
2009: 5 french 3 germans
2010: 4 french, 4 germans
2011: 3 french, 3 germans, 2 italians

2012 doesn't really count, since the team was built last minute and no real selection process was done.

2013 has been made with the most equal criterion we've had so far, so I'm guessing that if we find more french speaking people it's because they deserve to be there.
But here again, we would have one german player more if you were there (so we would be again on a 3-3-2 basis, which seems pretty fair to me)


If we except a small one in 2009 (which was also the best result ever of Switzerland) there never was a majority of french speaking people.
I think that swiss german community is probably a little bit biased in this regard, since it appears clear that we never really took more spots than them.

So the fact that it's "nearly impossible for them to enter the team" is quite wrong. As we clearly see that swiss germans players who have made results in tournaments (and not only two times in their local warhammer tournament) were included in the team.
It's quite obvious with you and Stefan. The community wasn't very aware of you some years ago. You proved yourself, and now you're amongst the first names on the list.
So it is with Christian.
I could cite Victor and Paul as well, who were very far from being quoted amongst eligible players some time back, but who gained respect after impressive results, participation to training days and on the forum.


I'm just against the fact that we set rules just for the pleasure to make rules.
Rules are to be set when it's necessary, and I don't see the point of guaranteeing two spots per region, as long as things are working well.

I totally agree on your 4 points, and I think that each of us (you, me and Alan) had them somewhat in mind when discussing about the team, even if they were not stated black on white (or red on pink here haha)
I would support the iead of making them an official guidelines for the future selection process. A guideline, but not rules engraved in stone, as the Swiss Community is small enough to allow flexibility.


Well, then let my answer with something from sports – there you also very often see young often much less experienced players that get a chance to play in important matches/tourneys in order to get experience even if better but older players are available.

Yes, they will be invited for friendly games, or to sit on the bench.
But in competition, the best 11 will always be on the pitch, especially during a competition such as a World Cup (which the ETC genuinely is).
That's why we opened the ETC process, opened the forum, organized open training days and tournaments. For players who want to get involved could do so.
And I think the team we built up reflects well who deserves to be in the team, and who doesn't.

So now it is probably more easily understandable, that the perception of the community is somewhat different on the matter, than ours might be.
It is my point of view, that we have to show the community, that we care for new players and encourage as many players as possible to try to become involved. That is furthering the community
as a whole, as it encourages the players to become better, they will probably get friends involved to go to tourneys together, who train together and so on and so forth. This is also working towards the competitiveness goal – but not very short term.

+10

We cannot build Rome in a day.
But I think that we've made an important step ahead.
And I sincerely hope we can continue this way.
We can see it's benefiting for the community, since we have now more players than a year before.
Sadly I'm not going to be there next year anymore (except for big tournaments) but I fully trust you to continue in this direction, taking great care though, in not putting too much pressure on the thread, and not make ETC-Hammer the main standard of Switzerland, because that would be dangerous as well.
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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Mon 8 Apr - 10:03

Well, if you put it that way, I could very easily argue, that yourself are saying this to maximise your own chances of staying in the team. I do not believe this to be true, but lets face it, from an outside perspective it can easily look like this:
Xavier knows quite a lot of good players, it is very likely that one or two of his friends will be in the council. If this is the case, it is easier for him to get in the team, if his friends alone decide on who is in the team, leaving other rules aside.

This holds true, under the condition that I'm elected again in the council.

So I do not have much power upon my fate, I'm afraid Wink
If I'm elected, it's because people think I can do a good job in the ETC.
If I'm not, I need to trust the council and hope they'll pick me up because they think I deserve to be there Smile
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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Mon 8 Apr - 11:16

But quickly before raising any further arguments, I would like to strongly oppose this:

from the outside it easily looks like that some friends from the French speaking part of Switzerland are “the ETC team” and it is nearly impossible to enter it.

etc pp

Please read my post again carefully - it is not my own opinion I have stated - it is what people have told me, they (not me) have perceived.
I also clearly stated, that this is not reflecting my own view. Wink
I can also add, that this is partly due to the fact that some perceived Filip coming from the french speaking part and not the italian one. Laughing
So, as I statetd - it is very much about perception. And if the perception is flawed at the moment and we could correct that easily by establishing a base rule or guideline or whatever you want to call it to that end - that is still flexible as it can be changed at all times - then why not?

For the rest - you still have not stated, why in your opinion the rules suggested would not allow for a competitive team? Please elaborate!






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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Mon 8 Apr - 11:32

I never said the 4 rules would not allow competitiveness, put that guaranteeing at least 2 spots per region wouldn't.
If there are 2 competitive players per region, then fine, but if french region finds itself with only one good player when german side has more, I don't see why the frenchs would have the right for two players anyway.

I just want the 8 best and most suitable players available to be at the ETC, that seems to me as only fair, since ETC is a competition and it would not make sense to leave better players at home.

So, as I statetd - it is very much about perception. And if the perception is flawed at the moment and we could correct that easily by establishing a base rule or guideline or whatever you want to call it to that end - that is still flexible as it can be changed at all times - then why not?

Why not, as long as nothing such as "2 people from each region" is included Smile
I like the 4 rules very much, since it's what I have in mind when voting for this or that players.

Please read my post again carefully - it is not my own opinion I have stated - it is what people have told me, they (not me) have perceived.

Then maybe they should get involve more in the ETC process, if they want to be part of the team.
I agree we have to communicate the process better next time, and it will be done so after the ETC.

My idea here support yours, and I would like to write a document that we would post on forums or so, where people could see clearly what need to be done if they want to be in the team. But then, decision is theirs, whether they want to invest or not Smile

Because there's a huge difference between wanting to attend the ETC, and actually make effort in order to be competitive enough to be eligible.


P.S. it also seems to me that we argue not because we disagree, but simply because we both like to argue Laughing
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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Mon 8 Apr - 11:44

It seems that you are still missing out on the point, that the 2 players per region rule is dependant on complying with all other rules as well - including especially rule 4.
Hence, if in your example the "swissfrench" region has only one player that complies with the competitiveness rule no4 than obviously there will be only 1 "swissfrench" player in the team in said year.
So where is your point?

The only possible deviation between the two systems can arise, when the council cannot agree on who are the "best" players.
But then there will be a problem nonetheless, no matter what system you have chosen.

Because there's a huge difference between wanting to attend the ETC, and actually make effort in order to be competitive enough to be eligible.

Exactly! But when someone already has a misconception about the whole concept, then he will probably not bother to start due to that. Wink

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Mon 8 Apr - 12:00


I'm not missing out the point, I'm totally aware of this since the beginning Smile
I would add, that's why I'm fighting this imho pointless rule of 2 spots per region from the start.

So where is your point?

I could add, where is yours?

I give you up the case, where 2 players have the same exact playing quality, play the same army, have been to the same amount of training days and do equally much for the community... then maybe the origin might be taken into account, to decide between the two equal quality players.

But unless that case occurs, we would just pick up the best 8 players according to the rules you've set.
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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Mon 8 Apr - 12:21

Obviously the 2 spots per region is not pointless, as you yourself have alread created one occassion, where it would come into play.

It would also come into play, when the council disagrees on the quality of players, or if players have advantages in different points e.g. assume quality of player being roughly the same, one did more community work, one did more training days and tourneys
Here, region could be a tie breaker.
There are several other occassions, but I think I have already proven the point, while imo ( I might have missed or misunderstood something) you have still not yet shown how the ommission of the regional rule, is adding any value to the system.

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Dim on Mon 8 Apr - 12:24

Ok, I was just wondering of the following case:

-5 excellent swiss german players
-3 excellent players from tessin
-1 excellent player and 1 medium player from suisse romande.

Then the rule can lead to things like the medium player from suisse romande to be chosen instead of one of the excellent swiss german player.

If it is clear that being eligible means being top 8/9, then I'm ok with rule, but if you can interpret it like beeing "a decent enough player", then things are different.
In fact in the first interpretation, there is no need for a rule, since a top 8/9 player will be included in the team after all, no?

So I supposed, since you wanted a rule, that your interpretation of the rule was "decent enough player", and I argued against that.

Anyway, I don't think that it is so much important to include the rule or not, since on the end, the council has the last word: if the council doesn't want to follow the rule, then it will say that the level of the player in question is not good enough, and the rule is circumvented.

On the question of the visibility of the ETC in swiss german part, I think that maybe we should make a "swiss warhammer forum" (in english maybe, or with different sections for each language). I've seen many club forums here and there, but I think that a global forum would be of great help. Of course, the ETC swiss forum would then be a subpart of the global warhammer swiss forum.

Eventually, players not so involved with ETC would then have a look to what's happening over there.

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