Future Team Selection Process

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Mon 8 Apr - 12:35

I absolutely agree with DIM on all points except one:

If it is clear that being eligible means being top 8/9, then I'm ok with rule, but if you can interpret it like beeing "a decent enough player", then things are different.
In fact in the first interpretation, there is no need for a rule, since a top 8/9 player will be included in the team after all, no?

Decent enough imo does not and cannot mean mediocre, here I absolutely agree - he has to be one of the top players and I assume the council will work that out correctly applying rule 4 - but there are often not 8/9 players but sometimes 10+
Here an additional criteria could help and in this special case, the criteria also has imo a positive touch for the community stating equal terms and probably getting more players from Tessin or Swissgerman part interested as atm the French part has the broadest base of excellent and in this case eligible players.

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Mon 8 Apr - 12:39

I'm really sorry Buchi, but this is indeed pointless.

It would also come into play, when the council disagrees on the quality of players, or if players have advantages in different points e.g. assume quality of player being roughly the same, one did more community work, one did more training days and tourneys

That only occurs when there's 7 player from a region and 1 from the other.
If we disagree on one player, but all regions already have 2 players (very likely now) so here, yes, this "2 spots rule" is useless.

We could add a 5th rule to your rules (which need to be discussed further anyway, but time will come for that Smile ) that states that if the council consider some players as "even", then the priority will be made on the balance between linguistic region.
I would support that, personnaly.

But the 2 spots rules doesn't yield to the result you say it does.
That's why I oppose it.
If we can find 2 qualified players -> the rule is cancelled out
If we have more than 2 players -> the rule is useless except under a very specific scenario (7 players versus 1 player, and two player from equal quality)

There are several other occassions, but I think I have already proven the point

Maybe you convinced yourself, but you didn't convince me (see above) Smile
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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Mon 8 Apr - 12:43


I strongly support Dim's proposal of a Warhammer forum.

I've been thinking about that for some time now, and about the possibility to enlarge this one, adding a part that isn't ETC, but also other tournaments and stuff such as events or gallery (because we already have a good basis to start from, which always makes things easier when it comes to forums)

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Mon 8 Apr - 12:48

Well omitting the rule will solve none of the problems mentioned by yourself. So there was even no need to come up with something myself. Convincing enough? Laughing

And btw what you stated is only true under the condition that there are only 8 players eligible in the eyes of the council. Have more potential candidates and the number of possible combinations for "problems" where you need the tie breaker rule rises.

Good enough now?


In regard to the Forum - as I said - I strongly agree. There have been several attempts to this end in the Swiss german part, with some support for that idea but it never came to happen, as there were always voices that opted for leave it as it is.
If I can help in making this idea a reality, let me know, but we should start a seperate topic on that please. Wink

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Mon 8 Apr - 13:09


And btw what you stated is only true under the condition that there are only 8 players eligible in the eyes of the council. Have more potential candidates and the number of possible combinations for "problems" where you need the tie breaker rule rises.

This would be better support by a 5th point stating that if we see players as equal, we would try to respect as much as we can a fair shar of spots in the team.
Also because it goes beyond the two spots Smile

And maybe you would have 20 candidates, but some will be better than others, and thus the number of combinations will be very shrinked.
So the rule of the 2 will be rarely useful, and your idea of diversity would be better supported by something else than this.
The fact that you have 5, 10 or 100 people fighting for 2 remaining spots in the team doesn't change anything to the issue.

Well omitting the rule will solve none of the problems mentioned by yourself

Well, it doesn't forbid us to think of a better solution that help us in most of the scenario, not only in a small percentage of them.
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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Mon 8 Apr - 13:15


I think the best is, to sit one day around a table and set up the guidelines for the future team selection, and once we've agreed on something that seems acceptable and fair, we present it to the rest of the community.

We can do that after the ETC Smile
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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Mon 8 Apr - 13:30

What we want (at least if I interpret what you said correctly) is that the community is starting asap to get involved. So, why wait?
Furthermore, if I look at this thread, it can be that it will not be solved in one evening, without further preparation. So again - why wait and delay?

I agree that there might be a better solution, instead of 2 per region - so lets look for it together.

This would be better support by a 5th point stating that if we see players as equal, we would try to respect as much as we can a fair shar of spots in the team.

I do not like the phrasing - players will never be seen as completely equal. If we can change that to eligible and say fair share of spots in regions I am ok with that. As the 2:2:2 rule will establish the same (at least in how I interpret it).

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Mon 8 Apr - 13:41


why wait and delay?

Because it's nearly impossible to reach an agreement on a forum Very Happy

I was just thinking that since the selection for this year has already been done, we could wait for next ETC season to start with those things.
But you're right, better to start asap.

But I'm pretty sure that we can work that out face-to-face pretty fast Smile
Since we agree on almost everything in the end, and only the phrasing is a matter of controverse Smile

I bet my hand that we'll never see a team with less than two swiss germans or swiss romands in the future even without rules, unless we see a cascade of players giving up for personal reasons Smile
That's why I think the rule is useless, but adding it into the game won't change much in the end, so I'm ready to live with it haha Laughing
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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Buchi on Mon 8 Apr - 14:03

But I'm pretty sure that we can work that out face-to-face pretty fast

But it is not only us 2 that have to agree Wink And besides, we do not see us that often except for tourneys and usually there is not too much time for these issues.

I bet my hand that we'll never see a team with less than two swiss germans or swiss romands in the future even without rules, unless we see a cascade of players giving up for personal reasons

I hope you will not change your nick into "the onehanded" at any time. Wink
But on a more serious note, due to personal reasons, it might be that this year only one swiss german player will be able to go.
If I get a second child, I will basically quit Warhammer. You will probably go abroad soon. There are quite a few in the ETC team that study atm. If they start their job, you will never know where and if they than can and will make the time to stay in the game.
What are the prospects from the "next generation" of players? Up to this year WH tourney scene in Switzerland was in steep decline...
Next year 9th edition could arrive, if GW sticks to their usual rotation. If this one does not hit it, that could be devastating.
There are quite a few alternatives to Warhammer in the market now, mainly skirmish, but nonetheless, the market is shifting and not really towards GW.

So to me it seems not that unlikely. Wink

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  KrogGar on Mon 8 Apr - 14:04

First: Sorry to interrupt your interesting discussion.
Second: Big thx for opening this for the rest of the interested players =) It's nice to see, what's going on behind the curtain.

Third: I want to give you my 5cent (if you want or not Razz), since in the opening post it was stated, that interested players should give their opinion^^

So here it goes.

As one of the persons, who got in contact with the ETC-subject 2 years ago, I admit that Buchi is absolutely correct, on how the view over the ETC Team is, outside from the "insiders" (funny sentence^^).

There are lots of ppl thinking, that the ETC-Team is just made up from some "French" ppl at the top of the NTR. And that in the end, you only get into the team, if you get into contact with some of this "French"ppl. Also I think there is a misunderstanding because of the 2 ppl of the IT-Part of Switzerland, most will just think "he must be swissfrench" on the first thought, and I know. This is not the fault of the ETC-Team^^

Then there are sure some ppl, who do not even know about this forum here. Maybe there should be more promotion in the different swissforums with a big note "you must be registered to see inside" and maybe it would be possible to change the language of the whole registering stuff into English? I was already on this page a year ago but I did not know what was going on, because everything was French. So in the end I thought it was just a swissfrench Warhammerforum, which made the thought "the ETC Team is French" stronger…

2nd. I appreciate your efforts and I personally like the idea behind "2ppl of each region". In the end, you need to decide what you want. To you want a bigger community that gets involved and try to find more players that would be candidates for the ETC, or do you just want to have a strong team every year that tries it best?

In the end, I think you need to have both. First you need to have enough good candidates for the team, that in case someone falls out because of sickness or whatever, you have enough reserves to fill the hole. If you do not have this, then it will end like last year. If you go on with the idea "2ppl of each region", then you will obligatory reach the goal of having enough "good/skilled" players, because you need to make enough tournaments in all parts of Switzerland, you need to invest a lot in all regions.

ATM you also invest a lot in all regions, without the rule "2ppl of each region". But if you look into the future, this efforts might fall together, and it will be like the last few years. So keeping in mind "2ppl of each region" should keep the efforts up, or not?

I don't think you need to put this rule into stone, but it would be great to at least keep it in mind while the council chooses the players, and at least try to work it out, as good as it works.

Then I again must admit that Buchi is correct, about the part with "does it matter, as long as we do not play for the top 10?". I do not think, that it matters atm if we have a team that might score place 15-20 or a team that might score 25-35. Well it matters for the personal ego, but yeah^^ Sure it is sad, if you invest a lot of time + money and in the end you get ranked 22 because of 1-2 "lower skilled" players but at least those 2 lower skilled players gained a lot of experience and might rock your ass off next year ;-)

There was a reference to football, and I suck at football and the infos about it. But wasn't it stated the last time, that we had a very young team taking part in it, to gain experience and to get better for the next tournament? Sometimes you need to invest into new ppl and lower skilled ppl, because they can bring fresh wind into it and they might grow big. But they need the chance to get better and gain some experience. But this depends on the spirit of the whole "Swiss-ETC-Part".

Well yeah, that’s only my 5cent, maybe someone is interested in reading it^^

Kind regards

Krog

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Dim on Mon 8 Apr - 14:32

Just one word for the one who have never went to the ETC:

Don't think that Swiss team should be always ranked 15-25, and will never be top 10, since I really think that this is not true.
I think that the last two years results are irrelevant in the sense that the selection process failed.

Moreover, the other years where only german/romand teams, so we should have more quality now. We once played for a 3rd position (against Russia, long ago) but losed and finally we finished 8th.

We have the great advantage to combine players from 3 tournament scenes: Italian, German and French, which are clearly not bad scenes.
For instance, the Austrian team is known to be good, even if Austria is small.

So don't be pessimistic! The other teams are not gods that we shoud fear, we can kick a lot of ass Smile

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Mon 8 Apr - 14:34

Then there are sure some ppl, who do not even know about this forum here. Maybe there should be more promotion in the different swissforums with a big note "you must be registered to see inside" and maybe it would be possible to change the language of the whole registering stuff into English? I was already on this page a year ago but I did not know what was going on, because everything was French. So in the end I thought it was just a swissfrench Warhammerforum, which made the thought "the ETC Team is French" stronger…

I take note !
We'll work on that when changing this forum into a broader swiss community forum Smile
Since nobody cares about swiss strategies anyway, I don't think there's need to remain secret (furthermore, there's no more closed list, so we could easily open this up)

First you need to have enough good candidates for the team, that in case someone falls out because of sickness or whatever, you have enough reserves to fill the hole. If you do not have this, then it will end like last year

This is totally true, and that's why, when I was given the responsability of team captain, the first thing that I did was to open up the process and make it accessible to most of the players.
And I'm more than willing to go further in that regard Smile

I do not think, that it matters atm if we have a team that might score place 15-20 or a team that might score 25-35. Well it matters for the personal ego, but yeah^^

I already said something about that.
It maybe doesn't matter to people who do not participate at the ETC, but for most of the ETC players, it does matter.
I personally want to achieve the best result, and I would feel disappointed achieving a mediocre result knowing that with other players, we could have done better.
If we decided to build up a fun and community friendly team, I might join nonetheless, because ETC is fun even without competition.
But I would think twice, especially because an ETC is a big hole in the budget. And for me going with a less competitive team (don't get me wrong, it's only if there were a better team possible) is less fun than with a competitive.
That comes to personal opinion, but I'm sure a lot of people share this point of view.


Sometimes you need to invest into new ppl and lower skilled ppl, because they can bring fresh wind into it and they might grow big. But they need the chance to get better and gain some experience. But this depends on the spirit of the whole "Swiss-ETC-Part".

You have training days, tournaments and so on to gain experience to get stronger.
Once you've reach a level that allows you to be considered as a competitive ETC player, then you will maybe be awarded by the Council the chance to compete at the highest level.
You're not supposed to train yourself at the ETC, you need to be ready Smile

Well yeah, that’s only my 5cent, maybe someone is interested in reading it^^

And that was interesting indeed Smile
Please don't get me wrong about my competition spirit. I don't think there many people as much concerned about the Swiss community as I am Smile
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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Xavier on Mon 8 Apr - 14:39

Don't think that Swiss team should be always ranked 15-25, and will never be top 10, since I really think that this is not true.

+1

In 2008 we drawed in the sixth round against Russia because of italian mercenaries, with a victory we would have been 3rd

In 2009 we finished 8th, but one of our best player gave up one month before the ETC

In 2010 we finished 22th because of a cascade of bad luck, but after the first day we were 2nd and fighting against Italy on table 1 ! (and here also, we had to take a replacement because Alan had to give up)

In 2011 we finished 15th, but the team was neither complete nor trained, and two players scored around 25pts...

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Re: Future Team Selection Process

Post  Pulps on Mon 8 Apr - 23:17

I don't want to get out of the discussion, but I agree with what Dim said.

A Switzerland warhammer community is what we need, where all the 3 parts are involved (therefore, everyone knows the 3 languages, or only 1 language that everyone knows). Activities, tournaments, events, discussion: everything shared on commun ground. That, with a good "public" reaction, will surely increase the players pool, the competitivity(regarding etc), and more important, the fun. It doesn't have to "serve" for the etc, it would be "The" community, and the etc a parallel object that can give to players some inspirations. And etc "stuff" would take advantages aswell...


I am also in with my help if a project like that would take place.


Coming back to the discussion, some rights to the "3 swiss parts" have to preserved even if not needed in any case: if not a 2+2+2+ something else should be found.
I think it's a right way to speak in terms of "guidlines": at the end the council has the power, elected by players...in general mistakes would be payed.

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