High Elves

without book of Hoeth (and i prefere this way to have some more option in ennemy magic phase) i'll play something like this


Unnamed2400 Pts - High Elves Army

1 Archmage @ 320.0 Pts
General; Magic Level 4; Lore of Shadow
Ring of Fury [40.0]
Staff of Solidity [20.0]

1 Archmage @ 270.0 Pts
Magic Level 4; Lore of High Magic
Silver Wand [10.0]

1 Noble @ 184.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Battle Standard
Banner of the World Dragon [60.0]

1 Mage @ 140.0 Pts
Magic Level 1; Lore of Shadow
Sigil of Asuryan [40.0]

24 First Archers @ 310.0 Pts
Longbow; Standard Bearer; Musician
Banner of the Eternal Flame [10.0]
1 Captain @ [10.0] Pts

10 Archers @ 115.0 Pts
Longbow; Musician

29 SpearElves @ 295.0 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Captain @ [10.0] Pts

19 Phoenix Guard @ 405.0 Pts
Halberd; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician
Banner of Sorcery [50.0]
1 Keeper of the Flame @ [37.0] Pts
Halberd; Heavy Armour
Skeinsliver [25.0]

5 Shadow Warriors @ 80.0 Pts
Longbow; Light Armour

5 Shadow Warriors @ 80.0 Pts
Longbow; Light Armour

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

Additional Casting Dice: 0

Additional Dispel Dice: 0

Models in Army: 103


Total Army Cost: 2399.0

Interesting.
Where would you place the characters?
How would you play such a list - meaning - which way would you go for points and how do you want to prevent the enemy from taking points (except by the 6 - 8 redirectors (counting the Lvl1 and 10 Archers as well))?

depends:


if you have to protect them from shooting you can put them into phoenix or in a big unit.

if the other doesn't shoot they can also go on 10 archers (or even on 5 shadows)



with this army you don't try to score 20, normally you give 360 points (eagles+shadows) but the rest (eccept maybe for 10 archers) is almost impossible to lose (the opponent is afraid of occam and -D3 to TH)


against Deamons (depending on DM) but it's not so difficult with 45 arrows and -D3 to TH, Occam, -D3 to Str and Miasma

I think you can also lock Vampires (the turn he wants to dance you use shard)

lizards just have sally that can be a problem (-D3 TH and shooting help to resolve it )

and also agains DE you have a pretty good matchup



By the way i forgot to change the list: High magic wizard is level 3 with vortex shard (too broken) and fire wizard goes lvl2. you also gain magic atks if the vampire plays shades








just a question: do you have this army painted? i have some model i can paint but not a lot

First things first - I could provide most of the models painted and based - I might lack 5-10 Archers and definately 1 Eagle. The rest I have for sure.

Thanks for the explanations though - much appreciated!
I can clearly see the idea now, but am not yet really convinced - will have to think some time on it and will wait for Pulps opinion and a probable list from his side.

i have eagles and archers, if pulp will decide for them i'll force him to paint them





yes he have to chose, for me is pretty the same thing. the two armies have almo the same purpose and for the team nothing change...

Hey!

In my opinion if you can get in the vortex shard it will be perfect.

I agree with you: 2 armylist have the same purpose and I have some doubts with boths ^^.

Pulps

Unnamed2400 Pts - High Elves Army

1 Archmage @ 285.0 Pts
General; Magic Level 4; Lore of Shadow
Staff of Solidity [20.0]
Pidgeon Plucker Pendant [5.0]

1 Archmage @ 315.0 Pts
Magic Level 3
Vortex Shard [75.0]
Amulet of Light [15.0]

1 Mage @ 140.0 Pts
Magic Level 1; Lore of High Magic
Ring of Fury [40.0]

1 Noble @ 184.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Dragon Armour; Battle Standard
Banner of the World Dragon [60.0]

24 First Archers @ 310.0 Pts
Longbow; Standard Bearer; Musician
Banner of the Eternal Flame [10.0]
1 Captain @ [10.0] Pts

9 Archers @ 125.0 Pts
Longbow; Musician
1 Captain @ [10.0] Pts

29 SpearElves @ 285.0 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Musician
1 Captain @ [10.0] Pts

20 Phoenix Guard @ 395.0 Pts
Halberd; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician
Banner of Sorcery [50.0]
1 Keeper of the Flame @ [12.0] Pts
Halberd; Heavy Armour

5 Shadow Warriors @ 80.0 Pts
Longbow; Light Armour

5 Shadow Warriors @ 80.0 Pts
Longbow; Light Armour

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

Additional Casting Dice: 0

Additional Dispel Dice: 0

Models in Army: 104


Total Army Cost: 2399.0

After some thought on the list I would like to voice my opinion.

In my eyes the list is extremely risky and will need a lot of luck as it is fully dependant on magic.

The Archers have not much potential without the reduce toughness spell and with only the Lvl4 on Shadow you cannot be sure to even have that spell.
Furthermore, their shooting is highly dependant on a free view on their target. If you look at the proposals for the tables, that is unlikely. But even with a favourable table, it will be extremely easy to interpose some light units in the line of fire to still arive in large numbers. Then you only have the redirectors.
But even with that you will have ample problem to hold of any hard hitting flying units.
For example, what would you do vs a 1+ AS pendant highborn on Pegasus with the Dragon egg? The 24 archers will be gone after round 2/3 depending on who starts.

Also the strategy to specculate on Occams is pure gambling. This assumes first that you have the spell, secondly that you have enough dice and roll high enough in the magic phase to cast it successfully without your opponennt banning it (whichever way) or thirdly you need IF, which is not too likely even if you could throw in 6 dices.
Without a spell at the right time, this list cannot do much.

You also have to see, that template weapons and or mass destruction spells will elimante any threat of this list in 1-2 rounds.

Also, what will you do against assassination attempts vs the lvl 4? Magicwise, as soon as the Banner of the World dragon is revealed, your opponent will try to prevent the mage to swap in and out of this unit and go for him. If he has a fast hero (preferably flying) he will also go for him as he will win as soon as this mage is dead as the rest of the army is dependant on his magic. Beforehand he will sacrifice an expendable unit to see if he is ethereal of course.

Next problem - mass infantry armies skaven for example - I cannot see, what you would do against those?

Personally I do not like the proposed lists very much I have to say.

so:


for magic you have 2D6 dice 3 wizards to channel and banner of sorcery. so you have at least 3 dice and is not difficult to cast -D3Th with 3 dice (but this is the worst case..)

the ETC tables are almost completly empty. it's quite impossible to hide a big target (you just have some little house and some rocks that are on sides) so archers will have LoS against hidres, Hellpit almost everytime.


the army is thought against daemons, DE, Lizards and Skaven.


onestly, what can do a mass infantry army list againts this one? they cannot win a combat and in shooting the cannot score the 20.




the army is strong but, as i said privately to pulp, i would prefere O&G

According to this thread, the tables do not look empty to me:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=80312

The proposed opponents are:

Daemons - against them the list should work, agreed

DE - as I said a Highborn with Pendant and 1+ AS is sort of unkillable by this list binding and grinding the large unit of bowmens from turn 2 onwards, while there is not much that the list can do in CC even with a strong magic phase as you can only support 1 unit at a time. The DE will also quite likely have debuffs of his own sporting shadow lore. Also what can we do against a combined charge of Hydra and Mass-Spears?
Personally, I would not look forward to play this list against some of the more popular DE builds.

Lizards - I cannot see this as a good matchup either. How are we going to get the Salamanders? They will always be held behind hard cover from either Skink Skirmishers or Chameleons. So in the best case you will hit on 5s.
Magic is also very uncertain as they might quite likely sport a Slaan with Becalming Cogitation, so no IF in a 24 inch zone that will comprise the Salis for sure.
Also, it is not unlikely that they will bring along 2 or more riding heros with a 1+ AS 4+ WS that will bind the shooting units early in the game while the Becalming Slaan is preventing Occams.

Skaven - in turn 1 you are looking at a doomrocket, 30-40 poisended slingshoots on the 4 from the gutter runners, the warplightning cannon, probable other long range weapons like poison mortar and a full magic phase to unload upon the archers. If we are lucky, we may have half the Archers left after this. Also we are running up against the stormbanner for sure. So the loses that we will inflict in turn 1 will be quite limited.
The Abom will be held back out of range during turn 1 for sure.
So, how do you suppose to not lose against skaven when in turn 2 the whole HE shooting will be gone with quite a high probability?


I just cannot see the same chances with this HE list as you do Alan.
Where I completely agree is, that listwise O&G is superior.

@2dipiche

I cant feel your roster.
in my opinion to less CC, magic alone dont gets enough points, not a big fan of HE shooting.

just my 2 cents



I dont know the actually high elves that good.
but I would play something in this direction;
(its just the direction not a complete roster)


dragon
2x level 2
bsb
2x spearmen
2x lions
4x eagles

or

(i prefer this one)

level 4
level 2
bsb
2x spearmen
3x lions
4x eagles



with a lot of light magic

1 Kommandant: 520 Pkt. 26.0%
3 Helden: 380 Pkt. 19.0%
2 Kerneinheiten: 500 Pkt. 25.0%
2 Eliteeinheiten: 900 Pkt. 45.0%
4 Seltene Einheiten: 200 Pkt. 10.0%

*************** 1 Kommandant ***************
Prinz 150 Punkte, General kostenlos
+ Sternendrache 370 Pkt. -> 370 Pkt.
- - - > 520 Punkte

*************** 3 Helden ***************
Edler 85 Punkte
+ Armeestandartenträger 25 Pkt. -> 25 Pkt.
- - - > 110 Punkte

Magier 100 Punkte, Upgrade zur 2. Stufe 35 Pkt.
+ Weiße Magie -> 0 Pkt.
- - - > 135 Punkte

Magier 100 Punkte, Upgrade zur 2. Stufe 35 Pkt.
+ Weiße Magie -> 0 Pkt.
- - - > 135 Punkte

*************** 2 Kerneinheiten ***************
25 Speerträger 225 Pkt., Musiker 5 Pkt., Standartenträger 10 Pkt., Champion 10 Pkt.
- - - > 250 Punkte

25 Speerträger 225 Pkt., Musiker 5 Pkt., Standartenträger 10 Pkt., Champion 10 Pkt.
- - - > 250 Punkte

*************** 2 Eliteeinheiten ***************
28 Weiße Löwen von Chrace 420 Pkt., Musiker 6 Pkt., Standartenträger 12 Pkt., Champion 12 Pkt.
- - - > 450 Punkte

28 Weiße Löwen von Chrace 420 Pkt., Musiker 6 Pkt., Standartenträger 12 Pkt., Champion 12 Pkt.
- - - > 450 Punkte

*************** 4 Seltene Einheiten ***************
Riesenadler 50 Punkte

Riesenadler 50 Punkte

Riesenadler 50 Punkte

Riesenadler 50 Punkte


Gesamtpunkte Hochelfen : 2500

regards
david

The ideas/concepts proposed by David are more, what I am used to see when it comes to High Elves lists.

@David
Your list has no magic items whatsoever in it - is this intentional?

I would also rather go for the second concept with the Light lasershow and multiple White Lion units.

2 x Banishment with 3 Light Mages gets rather funny

i know etc tables but think a little bit about it


where can you hide a big target (and we are talkink about hydre and hellpit of course) ?

you just have some rocks (and even not in every table) the rest is useless...






banishments is good but after what do you do in combat step without lore of shadows?
at the moment it's the best lore you can use to get superiority in combat phase and, imho, this is enough to scare the opponent that will never get a charge from spearmen (or even archers with occam are strong)






the dragon is completly useless in 8ed imho. you will stay too many turns in combat because the other test stubborn. the lions list is quite good but you need a unit for wizards and phoenix are just perfect.

In regard to the tables - if I read the rules correctly buildings hide large targets as well

Anyway - I agree that the Star Dragon, is a risk, so if you would use such a list, you would have to be careful with pairing. Under this years pairing rules - that will be a pain in the ass

So hence the Light Show list.
Mages can hide in the 2 Spear units behind the Lions and do their stuff. Lions have no immediate need of debuffs on enemy units. They are strong enough as they are and can be pimped even further by the light spells overcoming what ever is thrown in their way or if you play 3 units they will cripple anything that is thrown at them so severly that the remaining units will mop them up. Furthermore they are quite resilent vs shooting attacks while maintaining their combat qualities even without buffs. And they are stubborn - something the PG is not and has to worry about, being only 20 strong. This allows for some quite good positioning moves as well.

My suggestion would be something like this:


1 Archmage @ 335.0 Pts
General; Magic Level 4; Lore of Light
Seer Staff of Saphery, Obsidian Lodestone

1 Noble @ 168.0 Pts
Great Weapon; Battle Standard
Radiant? stone of Hoeth, Dragonbane gem
Lore of Light

1 Mage @ 140.0 Pts
Magic Level 2; Lore of Light
Dispel Scroll

29 SpearElves @ 310.0 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
Banner of Discipline - (debatable but needed core points)
1 Captain @ [10.0] Pts

29 SpearElves @ 295.0 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Captain @ [10.0] Pts

18 White Lions @ 332.0 Pts
Standard - Banner of sorcery

20 White Lions @ 322.0 Pts
Standard - Flamming Banner

18 White Lions @ 282.0 Pts
Standard

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts

1 Great Eagle @ 50.0 Pts


Total Army Cost: 2399.0

why you don't like world dragon banner? is better than RM3 and costs not much more...




banner of fire is better than discipline one. you need to shot down hellpit and hydre (and even with 1 wounds he cannot regerate when dead)


btw i know this list (this kind of list) and already played a lot against. i don't like it but ... but maybe is just me

It is not, that I do not like the banner. But there is drawback to it, that can be exploited by your opponents.
The banner relies on using the shadow lore character switching. If this is prevented by a bad magic phase or lucky banning etc pp, you can easily get in trouble. Also the originaly proposed list has not many units able to block without magic assistance

About the Flamming banner instead of Discipline - Flamming is already taken up by one of the Lion units which will put it to better use in my opinion. Also your opponent cannot know which of the units has it and has to cautious all the time with Hydra and Abom as the Lions are able to bring both down in 1 turn. Even though with a bit of luck needed

About the list in general - it has its advantages and disadvantages - agreed, but I find it more secure than the first list as the Eagles and Lions will block long enough that nothing should get to your mage bunker(s).

with the banner you just can't have occam but you can switch characters (even if you will play them in the same unit very often)

I meant it more in another way.

If he can pin the unit with the banner and the characters, you cannot buff the unit anymore. If your opponent can then prevent your mage from switching places he will likely die in the ensuing rounds of CC.

Dunno, I know the list you proposed and can also works well. But it's another kind of list, and for draw matches I prefere to avoid if possible cc.

Rest in stand by and get some pression on your opponet by a good shooting and magic phase and wait for his action is, imho, a good strategy for draws.

In the list there is still some stuff to change but the magic phase works well, and for the opponent is not easy to make some points...

anyway...still in testing phase, I'll probably also have 2-3 matcehs with a list like the one you've proposed


Pulps

I know the kind of strategy you would have to play with the shooting list quite well from 6th Edition

What I am really not getting is, how you defend against fast blocking chars (Pegapony, riding ScarVeterans or Vampires etc pp)?

And do you defend against other shooty armies, especially with template weapons?

If possible, could you please test against those kind of matchups and let me know, what worked/ord worked not?