Paris training debriefing:

Just arrived at home and I'd like to start this topic thanking the 4 friends with who I spent a really nice weekend


What did I learn about this weekend? Actually at the moment we have 8 lists that have nothing to do the one with the other, what we need is a team. Unfortunately the number of good players in switzerland doesn't always allow us to chose the best 8 armies and we'll have to renounce to something.

What do I mean with "team"? Even if the 8 matches are completely unrelated the real match start with the pairings and it's not always enough to try to maximize the good matchups and assure the 10 for the others. This of course depends on the fact that every forecast has a big variance and, if something goes wrong, having eight 12-8 armies doesn't allow any player to push more and try to find some point for the team.
This, summed to the big skill gap, explain why we lost 2/3 matches against team France.


What would the new team look like and why?


Brets (Xavier) : 2 trebuchets, 2 dispell scrolls, pegasus and any easy points for the opponent should bring a 8+ to the team. He just doesn't have to forget a crown of command or such
Empire (Dim) : Once the master with runic sword is removed he can completely modify his list in a defensive one. Heaven/Death (or maybe both) are good lores and the cannons are always a problem for some army.
Dwarves (Paul): Safe shooting list that can catch the opponent with miners+anvil combo.
Orcs (Pulps) : Said more than once: in my opinion they will be the army of the ETC2013. A lot of auto hits, trolls and a "safe" bunker for characters can bring a lot of points to the team. And they are the best answer to a WoC army that we can afford.
Skaven (Darksteve) : Double grey seer, brass ord, 20 gutters and a wall of rats. Good answer to WoC, empire and DoC. Nothing more to say.
HighElves (Victor) : 60 archers, shadows/death+hoeth (probably the second one is better), 4 bolts, lions and stubborn phoenix guards. Good shooting army that add a lore of death to the team and the 4 WM that can rape the WoC
Vampires (Raph) : 10+5 hexwraiths, terrorgheist, banshee, lvl4 and lvl1 of death and the "fighting" lord (str7 but no red fury). Someone has to push and Raphael has the skills to do it, he needs to train a little bit the concept but I'm sure it won't be that hard for him.
Daemons (Alan) : GUO with death, plaguebearers, nurgle beasts and soulgrinder. Screamers army is good but maybe I should push more and this is why I opted for the 2 th7 guys.

But, what about:

WoC: Seems to be one of the strongest army. The reality is that they are just easy to click with O&G, Skaven, some Empire concept, crying VC,...
Ogres: Same as above + lore of death/shadows problem.




How to pair them? Dim's program works well and if we can determine the matrices it needs it will do the hard work for us. From the last "tactic" the change consist on the fact that the 2 last armies (VC and DoC) will just have +10 and -10 (or something like that). This will force him to find good matchups for those 2 armies and let the other 6 on "difficult" matches, but this is what they are constructed for.

Said that don't expect 240 points made by Raph and myself, knowing the players level at ETC this is just impossible and an aggressive style of play means a lot of risks.

I agree, that having a team effort would be good, but I disagree on the way you have chosen.

I would never ever stand for choosing Skaven or HE over WoC not with the comp as it is. You may be right, that some concepts are harder for WoC then others, but to be honest, there are far more matchups that are far more horrible for both Skaven and to an extent HE.

Where I especially disagree is using Skaven against WoC - there all your hope lives and dies with the canon and getting through the 13th into an infantry char bunker. The gutterers are fairly easy points that will have a hard time to score anything, initiative against the brass orb is high across the board, the range of the plague lore is small, while toughness of the WoC is above average and you will have not that many rounds until your slaves explode and your seers get exposed. Also the multitude of fighting units makes it harder for the rats. As a Skaven I would not fancy that matchup.
In regard to the crying Vampires I also do not see that as a very problematic matchup for the WoC - yes, as long as the terrorgheist lives, the WoC cannot commit, but the Vampire cannot commit either. But both armies are supposed to be scoring - so how do you solve this problem?

I of course agree with Alan, since we thought about it all together.
Really, playing team games for the first time with the draft open your eyes, not only about how to play the armies, but also about what should be played.

So far we have thought of the sum-up of armies that are good in the swiss tournament scene, but that doesn't make a good ETC metagame.

Where I especially disagree is using Skaven against WoC - there all your hope lives and dies with the canon and getting through the 13th into an infantry char bunker

If you hope to win high, yes indeed, the canon may allow you to score very high if you get a good shot in the middle of the crush unit.

Otherwise, I don't know how you're supposed to go through a load of redirectors and through 3x40 slaves with a bunch of chariot and some frenzy monstruous cavalry...
And the WoC will go for a sweat when dealing with HPA + Wheel

The gutterers are fairly easy points that will have a hard time to score anything,

They take all the horsemen and hounds, but also stuff such as the hellcanon, and the Chaos warrior has nearly nothing to seriously take them down (except Hellcanon)

In regard to the crying Vampires I also do not see that as a very problematic matchup for the WoC

Maybe there's something I missed, but how is he supposed to manage the terrorgheist and the hexwraiths with chariots and monstruous cav?
With deathlore and -3 leadership the frenzied units become quite a nightmare to play, and the double Ld10 spirit leach is also a big threat

Make the complete Skaven list and I will tell you. Another good advice in this regard - play with the german guys online warhammer they will show you how to slaughter the Skavens.

About the Vampires - as I said - nobody can commit, hence nothing happens. If the terrorgheist advances it will get the counter. The only threat is indeed the death magic but that is assuming, that the WoC is bringing no magic on its own and the only thing that holds back the WoC is the gheist - if he gets casted down, then what?

In the end you and Alan can override my input anyway, but nonetheless I have at least told you my opinion.

I don't think that the WoC can afford to go fighting against skavens.
The magic is very difficult to stop. 1st, you have 2D3 warpstones, with double grey seer, and you can actually use them because you are not exposed as when you are on the bell.

There is plague for the crushers/warpstone lightening (3 times) /crack call for the chariots.
The assassin can give a hard time to the crushers. Once you are fighting the slaves comes the whell and HPA and you dies.
The cannon also is horrible for the chaos player.

For the VC, the terrorgheist is not the only thing. You still have one banshee and a characters that gives -1LD, and a rather good fighting lord (just not red fury)+ death. So suppose the terrorgheist is gone, and the -3LD is through, and then the banshee cries with +4 also, so... still risky to come imo.
And the hexwraiths can take a lot of points if there is no hellcannon.

Make the list Dim and you will see it does not all fit in

Well Thomas you can of course argue that that WoC are better than Skaven on the team but on the 1vs1 the WoC is just raped by magic and shooting.


The skaven can play: double seer (both with 5+ ward save, dispell and earthing rod, or the +1D6 to a dispell attempt), storm bsb, 3 warlock with magic resistence 3 + condenser + brass orb, 3x40 slaves, 2x35 clans, 8+7 gutters, abo and cannon. And you still have 170 points for the assassin or the wheel.
It's just too much for a lot of armies.

There is also the thing, that we want our armies to be safe against death/metal lores, because it seems quite sure that those two lores are going to be widely used at the ETC.

As I said - you do not fit in everything that was mentioned - that simply does not fit in pointwise

There is also the thing, that we want our armies to be safe against death/metal lores, because it seems quite sure that those two lores are going to be widely used at the ETC.

So we leave Empire at home as well?

No. And the reason is simple: Switzerland doesn't have a good player for each army. On the other hand Stefan can play both WoC and Skaven and, in my opinion (I saw him play both of them), he doesn't have the attitude to push for scoring with the WoC. Said that with the rats he can control his matches and easily score 8+ points in difficult matches and push harder when he has the chance.

It seems clear to me, that we will not convince each other. As I said, Xavier und you will override me anyway, so do what you like. I have said my opinion and will shut up now.

@Alan:

I saw him play both of them

When did you see me playing WoC? You're talking about the online-game against woodelves? That wasn't representative in my opinion, it was just a fun game with a friend.

To be honest I feel far more secure and comfortable with WoC.

Thomas, the 3 captains thing doesn't work. It's clear. We are a team and I want to hear each opinion. So please, if you want to help the team do it in a less childish way. Seriously no offense, I just don't like this kind of behaviour in a conversation.


Stefan the only reason to bring the WoC is to use it to push. Push hard. Are you able to do it? Because if you feel think that you can so the team can be modified as follow:
- Raphael with a less extreme list (cavalry should be ok but death>>light)
- You take WoC
- Victor can try to learn Skaven (he has the skills to do it imho)



The problem is that, if in Novi Sad the WoC will not score enough (even if receiving the right matchups) the whole tactic is easily countered.

Stefan the only reason to bring the WoC is to use it to push. Push hard. Are you able to do it?

Yes, I think so. Normally I play aggressive, but of course I have to train a lot with the finalized list, since many armies changed in the past. (on the other hand, training is required with every army ).

If you want to have skaven for sure, then it's better if Victor learns how to play them, because for me it's still not yet clear, if I will be able to participate, but that is known (or at least it should).
Thus for the team you can take WoC with me or Ogres with Christian. And if you the team can't wait until July, take Christian (assuming that the above list of players is the current state)

Translated by Google translation.

Warriors of Chaos army is currently the highest in the game.
I challenge whoever would come to prove me wrong :-)

Cheers

If Stefan cannot come i could learn how to play WoC.
I think i'm used to play really aggresiv armys.

I would also like if Viktor could ply Skaven. I think the HE are overhiped and not sooo strong to take them.

Personnaly, those three armies...

- High elves (the new ones)
- WoCh
- Skavens

... Will be new for me, but I've the time and motivation to learn how to play one of those.

I posted the skaven list we talked about. If you can spend a little bit of time on it and tell us what do you think about it.

ElDorte wrote:If Stefan cannot come i could learn how to play WoC.
I think i'm used to play really aggresiv armys.

This is a good idea. I suppose you are still in the mood to be the non playing coach right? You can test WoC for the next few months (unfortunately they are much superior than TK) this way you can replace Victor if Stefan can't have holidays from work.

in this case we should find a 10th person to be the non playing coach substitute... Maybe some of your swiss german friend? This way you will not be the only german speaking...

Yeah i would do the nonpalying coach if no one else do. But if i had the choice i would rater play then coach.

I dont know who would be good enough to play for the armys we are looking for.

ATM were looking for WoC, Skaven or Elves.

Well, with you we have at least 8 players. If Stefan will come I would say he can play WoC and you can coach (we'll offer at least the trip). If Stefan won't come it is useful to already have a substitute that will coach (without playing, so he doesn't have to be a pro-player but just have to know how the game works). This way we can also already take the airplane tickets for 9 persons.


What do you think about it? I know that read "you will play if he won't come" isn't really motivating but this is the situation. We can wait 2/3 weeks for Wanger's news and than decide...

No that was exactly my plan. If Stefan comes i will coach and if not i can play WoC.

For other players. Players that were interestet we have Kris Leibundgut, Patrick Rizzo (Rizzo speaks italian and french i think) maybe Stefan Gmür.

Well I can't help about this. Maybe Buchi knows them a little bit better and can contact them.

It would be nice to contact Stefan Gmür, he's a talented player that might get involved in next year ETC preparation, so it would be great if he were to be involved in the group

I will try to get in contact.

There is another swissgerman player I could think of, who is interested and plays empire, but is not yet there - but with a bit of training he might probably be in coming years.