Pairing with Skaven

Hi everyone,

I read in many threads that the composition of the armylist depends on the tasks the army should do for the rooster and on the rooster themself.
So maybe we could gather here an overview for each army, what it can do well and where the problems are. Maybe this can help to choose the armies if we know which kind of rooster we wanna have.

So I start this topic with the skaven and hopefully the other armies will follow
I think it's best to concentrate only on the concept with the bell, but the rest I keep open.

Advantages
+ very flexibel
+ only a few bad matchups and normally can hold them close to draw
+ can easily switch between aggressive and defensive
+ in a good matchup the list can also score well

Disadvantages
- It's slow, so some armies can just stay defensiv and go for 10-10
- there are some chances that it goes really bad (war machines which first kill the seer and then the bell)

The first entry

Matchup-Table

Army	Matchup	Variance	Comment
Beastmen	+	1	Basically a good matchup, but many redirectors and shadow wizards can cause problems
Bretonia	-	1	The heroic killig blow could be a problem and the lances don't fear the bell. But the cannon can change a lot
Demons	+	2	Normally I think good chances for the skaven, but depends on the lists.
Darkelves	++	0	Not to many dangerous things
Dwarves	0	1	depends a bit on the terrain and the number of gutter runners
Highelves	++	0	Same as darkelves, only the magic can cause trouble
Lizard men	0/+	1	Depends a bit on the magic, but in general a slight advantage for the skaven
Ogre Kingdom	+	1	I think, everything except the bus should die against
Orcs & Goblins	0	1	Many indirect shooting and redirector, so it's unsure
Skaven	0	2	many unsure situations
Empire	-	1	Not to much points to get, but depends a bit on the list
Tomb Kings	++	1	Almost no dangerous things, but some variation due to the 2 catapults
Vampire	0	1	I think a slight advantage for the skaven, but the vampires can play safe
Warriors of Chaos	+	0	I'm not sure about this matchup, but I think it's good for the skaven
Wood Elves	+	0	I won't score to high, but there is almost nothing they can do against the bell
Chaos Dwarfes	0	1	Many warmachines that can make troubles, but in general it should be close

This suggested results are my opinion when both player try to play safe. Of course it can go bit better for the skaven when the enemy gets aggressive. Furtheron the table will differ when we have a specific armylist. With 20 gutter runners it will be easier against empire, dwarfes, chaos dwarfes and (slightly against) orcs & goblins, whereas the doomwheel for example is good to score against large demons, tomb kings, wood elves (with tree kins and tree mans). Same depends for the choice between brass orb and doom rocket.
A last thing I'm not sure is the hellpit which for some armies is just free points.

But in almost every configuration I see the matchup against bretonia the worst of all.

Conclusion
I think in general there will be 2 or 3 armies in the opponents rooster with a rather bad matchup for the skaven. So I think from the second round of pairing it should be possible to set this army. To set them in the first turn a rather defensiv build (no doomwheel, maybe no hellpit) is needed, but then they can't score to high.

Hope this helps and we can discuss this

Very good effort - love this!

Generaly I agree with your conclussions. Where I see it a bit differently is the following:

Dwarfs - imo is a - If he bunkers up covering his WMs, there is not much you can do to score anything while his shooting will get him some points.
O&G - depends on the build. If he is not too shooty the matchup should be a +
Empire - I see a 0, because he has not that much indirect shooting, if at all
TK - his magic and stalkers could be dangerous depends on the list I think
WE - I would even see a ++, he cannot do much

Dwarfs - imo is a - If he bunkers up covering his WMs, there is not much you can do to score anything while his shooting will get him some points.

Yes, but:
-the bell can ring and destroy warmachines, like against Biboun chaos dwarves.
-magic can remove the anvil (I think?)

So the things can go terribly wrong for the dwarf.

I think we need a bunch of test Bretonnian/Skav, but normally skaven has a good option in my mind. For instance, see poland' skaven results against bretonnian 20-0 15-5
If he comes, block it with shit, and go shoot and magic! And the storm banner to block the pegasus if they are too greedy.

Nice job ! We should do the same for every army and correct it with the tests we can do. It will really help when we'll have to choose our 8 armies

About Bretonnians, I'd say it's not so easy to score against the Skaven. The canon is a pain in the ass, but as two trebuchet can fire at it every turn it might be doable. However it's difficult to score.

Nevertheless I also think it's a better matchup for the Bret, since he nearly cannot lose.

@Dim
Yes the bell can ring the result against WM, but has to take 3 dice and can then blow itself up (very unlikely ofc) and Dwarven WMs have 4 LP with the engineer making it more unlikely that something happens.
The spell to destroy the anvil you are referring to has 4 (or 6?) W6 range - so basically you have to get out of cover to cast that, meaning that you will get some canons in your face , which you basically cannot risk as that puts the seer as general in hazzard and if you lose him you lose a shitload of points and your Slaves are prone to explode first round of CC thus your lacking blocking capacities.
Imo dwarves is possibly the worst matchup Skaven can get as lomg as the Dwarf covers correctly.

To make some things clear: Most of the above ratings I made from theory, since I didn't play the bell list to much in the past.

Against the dwarfes and empires it really depends on my armylist. If I go with 20 gutter runners and without the hellpit there are not many points the shooting army can make. Maybe they kill my cannon and the doomwheel (if it's played) but will lose their warmachines against the poisoned gutter runners.
Of course this build is weaker against all the elven lists, because the gutter runners are the easier points (compared to the doomwheel and the hellpit) for those.

To have a correct table is only possible, when both armylists are known, but we can do good approximations if we assume the usual concepts for the opponents (so shooty for dwarfes and empire, fighting for darkelves etc. ).

So what remains is:
The matchup is not so good against brets, empire, dwarves, chaos dwarfes, O&G when I play the aggressive build. But it's much better against the elven, vampires, monstrous tomb kings and large demons.
I think there is the possibility to get some of both, but this we should discuss in the armylist topics - I will post a new list soon.


@dim:
I have to roll a 11 or 12 to make damage on warmachines with the bell - so it's unlikely with 2 dices and with 3 dices the're are chances for a double (not too bad) or a triple (painful) and a blow up of the bell. Maybe it's not soo bad against dwarfes if the bell blows up, since the seer is then safe but it's difficult to blow up the warmachines with the bell - even more since the dwarves have 4 wounds (I do only D3 wounds).

That's true. I did not think about the 4 LP.

If I go with 20 gutter runners and without the hellpit there are not many points the shooting army can make. Maybe they kill my cannon and the doomwheel (if it's played) but will lose their warmachines against the poisoned gutter runners.

That is why I said, you will not do much, when he covers his WMs correctly. If he does not give you enough room so that the runners can come from behind or the side you will lose the runners to the anvil and only have mediocre chances to get only 1 WM as you are shooting against hard cover - so no poison.
If he does not have an anvil, it might work a bit better, but even then you have to think about the rune of challenge, so you might lose the runners again or not shoot any WMs or at least the dwarf might then counter you.

Ahh...damn it... I thought that warmachines won't get cover from units, but ETC has another line-of-sight-system

But then I think it's better to have the skaven good against the other armies and try not to pair them against the shooting armies (if possible ).