Ogre Khans

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Ogre Khans

Post  Math-CD on Mon 4 Apr - 18:45

I would like to give you a short feed-back about my turnament with v0.99 OK. First of all here is the list I choose:

Great Shaman: lvl 4 heaven, dispell scroll, gw, ring of fire, 6++
Khan: bsb, 3+/5++, banner of courage
12 bruisers: fc, standard of discipline
3 tribesmen
4 tusker cavalry: ironfists, sm, dragonskin banner
4 tusker cavalry: ironfists, sm
3 tusker cavalry: ironfists, sm, gleaming pennant
3x 1 sabertooth tiger
3x 2 yetis

I chose to maximize the number of tuskers because I find their new stats quite amazing: T5 3+/pary, 8 attaks per model, ld 8, fear... I think one of the strengh of Ogre army is and already was in 8th ed: the multiple of threats. Being able to field 4 relatively strong and hard to kill mobile scoring units look strong.

In order to be able to dictate the movement phase and being able to charge I put 7 potential chaffs in my lists, 4 of them will try to play rather the anti-chaff role but can be sacrified if needed (cost 75-80 pts). I always liked the lore of heaven and I think it's still a very good choice for a great shaman since it gives you the possibility to do some damage also at distance but also to boost your troops in close combat. One of the main characteristic of the lore was always this mix between boost/debuff & damage.

I will go very quickly through my games (you will find a more detail analysis in my bat.rep. on my YouTube channel.

Game 1 vs O&G: 30 savages, 10 trolls, 30 iron orks, 3 chaff, 2 catapults, lvl 4 big waagh, 2 little caster, 1 lord iron orc and 1 bsb. I got challenged on this one by Endy (one of Ankor's friend), I think it's a pretty good match-up for ogres. My opponent did a little chaff mistake which had a big consequence: i was able to flank charge his savage block (w/ gg bsb...). I was also able to flank charge the 10 trolls w/ 3 tuskers on the same turns who broke afterwards on steadfast ld4. Harsh for him but I was pretty confident going in c/c w/ my t5 tuskers. score: 20-0

Game 2 vs Lizards: 30 saurus, 1 slann in 30ish temple guards, 3x 10 core skinks, 3x 10 skirmishers skinks, 1 basti, 2x 2 razor, 1 skink priest, 7 cavalry. it's not the same as 8th ed! It was an horrible match up, but now they have less poison and less skirmisher plus I am finally able to catch up the skinks w/ my M7 swift yetis! Then I entered into combat with combo charge of my main block + 4 tuskers, 2 yetis on the back and 1 on the front (so -2 init Very Happy). I killed all of them in 2 combat turns game over. However I was surprised that the 30 saurus killed my 3 tuskers who charged. I underestimated the saurus with lances obviously. score: 20-0

Game 3 vs Skaven: 2x 40 slaves, 25 monks w/ the war plattform, 1 lvl4 ruin, 1 machinist, 1 little caster, 1 bsb, 2x 2 swarms, 2x 30 clan warriors, 1 canon, 1 catapult, 2x 1 doomwheel, 2x 1 shooting ratling team, 1 mortar team. I went quite agressivly forward and got kicked by the shooting. My oponent's played it very smart on magic (the big Template causing dangerous terrain tests was very powerful), I sent my yetis too early forward to manage with oponent's chaff and deal with some slaves but I got killed quite quickly after I killed the 2x 2 swarms. The doomwheel + canon made got something like 8-9 tuskers killed in 4 turns quite harsh. At the end I charged with my main block in the war plattform but these guys are just awesome! The guy on the war plattform has distracting and since i don't have anybody with a good CC & strengh I was not able to kill it. the monk do a lot of damage w/ 3 attaks per model & poison. Anyway well played from my opponent, I should have played slower, let him moove a bit forward with the doomwheel in order to get the shooting range, and then try to charge them with tuskers. I wasn't able to deal with them properly. Mooving randomely and shooting 360° with multi wounds made a great deal. I am able to contest the secondary objective w/ a 1 wound remaining tusker. 3-17. The skaven guy finished 1st in the turnament.

Game 4 vs Ankor: 1 stellar, 1 frosty, 1 fire phénix, 15 core cav, 10 core cav, 2x lvl 2 nature, 1 bsb, 1 cavalry character w/ hero sword, 2x 1 eagle, 2x 1 reaver chariot. I said to my collegues before the turnament that this kind of list looks strong against mine, since a character on dragon is able to kill tuskers quite easily. So I need to be patient, careful, and protect my tuskers with possible counter charge of another big unit. We played a very interesting tactical movement game. We don't take a lot of pts from each other but I am able to kill the frosty and some little stuff in order to just being able to win 11-9.

Game 5 vs Xavier (deamon): lvl 1 death, lvl 2 metal, 30 tallymen, 5 flies, 2 x 4 jugg, 2x 5 gargoyles, 2x 5 fast cav slaanesh, 5 dogs, 2 beats of slaanesh, 10 horrors. I think like Xavier that's quite auto win for me in this match up. My all 4 units are better in 1 vs 1 than him. So I just needed to be quite careful in order to don't get surprised. At the end he is able to charge me with flies + 30 tallymen in my 4 tuskers w/ dragonskin banner: he killed only 2 of them, then I can counter charge with my main block on the flies and afterward kill slowly the tallymen. lore of heaven helped me to reduce the number of jugg/flies. One other tusker unit will take 4 jugg and the other try the charge on turn 6 but didn't killed them. I managed to take out all other small units with tuskers or yetis/ogres. 20-0

I think my list has a very good potential to score heavily against good match-up since I am very mobile and I can hit heavily at different places on the same times. Her are my findings about my list:

- 3 big tuskers unit take a lot of places, it was very difficult to get all of them into combat at the same time
- yetis are very very useful being very mobile
- I lacked character who is able to deal or at least block/slow down a strong character
- I still think that playing only one caster lvl 4 general is quite risky
- my bsb build: save/ward save was quite useless. I would either played him without protection or with stronger build.
- ogres are very strong on objectives being able to field multiple mobile and résilients units

We talked quite a lot with Arnaud about OK's lists before this turnament. His list was also quite good with less tuskers but 2 core combat units. We talked also about the possibility to field a double tyrant list w/ 2 big combat blocks and chaff but I think it will lack of mobility and multiple threats which is one of the OK's strenghts.

I will play another turnament in 2 weeks and modify a little bit my list to be more balanced. I will probably field 1-2 combat characters and play 2 lvl 2 which is less risky, more stable in my opinion. I think 3x 2 yetis & 3 sabretooth tigers is auto-include for OK now! I will write another feed-back after the next turnament.

Math-CD

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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  sevic on Tue 5 Apr - 10:45

Well great performance Math!

I have only one concern about the list: Lore of heaven, especially on a lvl4, especially which is the general^^

Heaven is a mostly a 4 dice lore, and loosing your general and only magician on a miscast generally means a heavy defeat (depending on the game turn ofc). Moreover I think you would benifit from having more way to clear chaff. I think you should consider playing 2 lvl2 fire with breath weapon.

The spell 6 (+1 t, 5++, fireborn) is actully great with this army!

Then you would have a clear leadership problem (8 with discipline), What about a tyrant instead of the small tusker unit?

tyrant
2 lvl2 fire
bsb
core
2x 4 tusker
3x 1 saber
3x 2 yetis

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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  Math-CD on Tue 5 Apr - 11:03

Thanks. Actually I had this concern and i was discussing with arnaud this morning to see how split my risks while gain some impact against Things i have Problem to deal with and keep the idea of the list.

Here is the new list i built :

General khan: 5A always hitting on 3+ ap1 lethal, 3+ AS, thunderous & devastating charge
Khan bsb poison attacks + give it to the unit once, ironfist, 3+/5++
Lvl 2 DS beast gw
Lvl 2 butchery +1 spell Ring of fire gw

8 ogres 4+/pary FC
8 Bruisers FC discipline
4 Tuskers SM dragonskin
2 Tuskers SM gleaming
2 Tuskers M
3 x 1sabretooth
3x 2 yetis

I think I will need some boost magic. My yetis are able to deal quite good with the chaff + i should get 1 blast + Ring of fire quite easily.

Both khans should give me some punch in both my core units. General costing only 160-70 pts Actually I don t care too much if he dies while bsb is more resilient

Math-CD

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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  Dim on Tue 5 Apr - 13:17

I feel the "more balanced version" is not what we are looking for: Ogres should be used to hit hard on some armies, and not be optimal on others, that's it.
Arnaud's version could not crush Xavier for instance, but would probably still suffer a lot against skavens.

I prefer a build with +10 against demons and maybe -2 against something else? (and yet you managed to win against star dragon, which is supposed to be a counter I guess)

If you are going to play Ogers, there are 2 options
1) Shooty defensive list, which should "handle anything" => balanced.
2) Agressive close combat build, which should crush some things but can also have problems in other match ups => unbalanced.

I think the middle ground is just a wrong idea for the pairings.

I feel that handling 4,2,2 tuskers is easier than 4-4. If 4-4-3 was too much, then maybe just 4-4 + better character set up is the way to go, as Victor proposes.
Maybe one unit of Tusker was not fighting each time, but the question is more: was the 3rd unit useless? or the pressure it put, even though not getting to CC, allowed you to do better with the other 2 units?
(Multiple threat thing as you call it)

I think in both lists the magic is not optimal, that would be the part I would change.
Casting values of heavens are too high, 3 dices per spell for thunderbolt and wind blast, 4 dices for others, which means you are going to cast 2 spells par phase, one of which is dispelled.
Also the attribute is cool but you don't have so much value in re-rolling 1 dice (not so important wound or armour save).

Wilderness combines very well with full Tuskers lists I guess:

1) magical moves
2) +1 S +1T is ridiculous on tuskers
3) 5D6 S1 is quite good at removing warmachines dangerous for tuskers + redshaft lance also good.
4) Parry and -1 to hit is ridiculous (which compensate the loss from the 0th of heavens a bit)

Fire and Metal can also be considered.

It is much less of a problem to have lvl4 general if you don't have to cast spells with more that 3 dices often.

Dim
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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  sevic on Tue 5 Apr - 13:28

Yes beast is a great 3 dice lore.

If you would end up to keep the level 4 general, I would go for beast. The only problem is the lack of missile (which you need because its allow you to put an even stronger pressure by removing redirectors).

I would also condider playing the Daemon heart!

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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  Dim on Wed 6 Apr - 9:56

a lvl1 caster of fire can be an option to have ways to kill redirectors.
With heavens, you've got to be lucky to kill non-single model redirectors anyway (D6...)

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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  Math-CD on Wed 6 Apr - 11:03

Deamon Heart is too expensive in my opinion. I ve heard he will be modified to be better in v1.

I agree dim. But I don t know what to take out for this 3rd caster. I think the 3rd tuskers unit is more important than the 3rd caster. The other option would be to change the Lore of my 2nd caster from beast to fire. But I can of like the way i can boost my units w/ beast + butchery

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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  Pulps on Wed 6 Apr - 19:08

The 3 x 2 Yetis are rellay nice: I like them.

It looks like ogre can fields a pretty nice Msu build: very mobile and hard hitting. But as other already said, it's a scoring build: it will have to be paired properly to score hard.
A few considerations:

- It's a heavy ld testing army, I would not suggest to play with less than LD9.
- I like Sevic proposition about fire lore, with a rushing army, having some chaff killer spells is very important. But as you said, you'll have to find a solution for the general LD.
- I don't think the list will work with only 2x4 tuskers, have you already tried? I think you will lose too much aggression value, especially if you start loosing stuff against shooting/magic


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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  Math-CD on Thu 7 Apr - 13:34

Thanks for your comments. I ll try the following list tonight :
Khan + lvl2+1 beast + Lvl 2 fire into 8 Tribesmen w/ discipline
Khan bsb into 8 Bruisers
4 Tuskers dragonskin
4 Tuskers gleaming
3x2 yetis
3x1 sabretooth

In comparison with my turnament list I still have 4 good combat units but I gained 2 fighty characters.

I ll post a feed back

Math-CD

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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  Pulps on Wed 20 Apr - 9:52

Have you already tried the mass shooting list? Of course it will depdend of what our 8 armies will look like but it's a very valid option.


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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  ABT on Mon 9 May - 9:22

Je me permets d'écrire en français vu qu'il n'y a que des francophones qui ont répondu jusqu'à maintenant dans ce topic (y.c. Pulp et Alan qui parlent bien notre langue ;-) )

Pour l'IR, je propose la liste de CAC, que j'ai joué entre le didier Laurent et l'ascenssion des gamers.

Lvl 4, général, Butchery, rottenjaw, GW, Dispell Scroll, Ring of fire
lvl 2, fire, GW, Book of Arcane Lore
BSB, 2+ AS, Dragonskin banner, yeti furs, Iron fist.
8 Ogres, HA, IF, FCG, Discipline
7 Bruisers, FCG
3X1 Tiger
3X2 Yetis
3 Tuskers, IF, SM, Flamming Standard
3 Tuskers, IF, SM, Gleaming Icon
Rock AUrochs

Les modifications par rapport à ma liste d'hier résident dans les domaines de magie.

En effet, je jouais Alchemy (lvl4) et butchery (Lvl2 +1), mais j'ai cruellement manqué de quoi agresser à distance les chaff et machines de guerre entre victor et ses ES et Burri et son empire. Pourtant, j'avais affronté un empire au didier laurent, a qui j'avais mis 16-4 en trois tour. Mais il ne jouait pas bien et j'ai mieux pu le contourner. Il n'avait qu'un canon, ce qui n'était pas le cas du burry qui a blessé 75% des fois alors qu'en 6 tours de tir, avec 2 canon et un mortier, il devrait y avoir 3 incidents (y en a eu qu'un) et rater la moitié du temps. Bref. Je fais quand même égalité sur lui. Je pensais mettre les cieux, mais j'ai lu vos commentaire dans ce topic et je les partage, c'est trop cher à lancer. Alchemy m'a bien aidé au didier laurent, hier un peu moins. par contre le domain des ogres est juste extra, déjà qu'il marche sur un lvl2, sur un lvl 4 ça veut le faire. Il y aurait aussi la possibilité de jouer Mort et butchery mais il n'y aurait pas davantage du blasts.

Toujours est-il qu'à didier laurent, je jouais 3-3-2 tuskers et c'était très bien. J'ai choisi d'essayer le mastauroc à la place de 2 tuskers, car il apporte un punch non négligeable et prend moins de place en largeur, il cré aussi un no man's land avec lequel l'adversaire doit compter, il prend des tir qui ne vont pas sur les tuskers (après avoir 9pv endu 5 et 3+ de la troisième unité de tuskers est pareil...). Bémol, la frénésie, mais cela se gère avec la rapidité du reste de l'armée et les nombre de chaff. Hier, il n'est mort que contre les insanités des tirs de burri, ce qui devait faire survivre mes 4 autres unités (ogres, bruisers et tuskers), rien n'y a fait pour les derniers de la liste avec les banissements, tunderbolts et canons surtout. Victor n'a simplement pas pu le toucher, même avec les changeformes, et le joueur HL de la première partie s'est vu mettre ses tirs empoisonné hors combat assez vite.

Voilà donc ma proposition.

Je vais vous poster aussi une liste avec: héros ou seigneur combattant, 2 lvl2 (feu et butchery + 1 sort et anneau de feu), bsb, yetifur et dragonskin (qui rend les ogres de base ultra fort), je ne les ai jamais perdu. A voir ce que j'arrive à mettre à côté.

Je ne suis pour le moment pas convaincu de la liste tir, car "warhammer se gagne au Càc" ;-) ceux qui étaient là hier me comprendront. Et je pense que l'ogre doit pouvoir enfoncer pour l'IR, la liste tir n'enfonce pas forcément, ensuite elle est limitée sur 2 des 4 obj secondaires. Alors que la liste cac a 4 scoring units rapides, ce qui augmente les chances sur les 4 scénarios selon moi.

A+

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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  Math-CD on Sun 3 Jul - 20:34

Salut à tous,

Petit retour sur le Moot avec ma liste hellfist (tyran, n4 cieux, gb, 8 VD, 8 CP, 8 Mangeurs, 2x 1 canons, 3 x 4 ogres):

Game 1: 16 vs DE MSU
il a pas de quoi vraiment agresser mes packs, il arrive malgré tout à one shot sans problème mon tyran avec son lord sur char d3 pv. Je vais réussir à prendre la cav et faire fuir le lord grâce à une contre charge de mangeurs d'hommes. Il fait une erreur pour la prise d'objo qui me permets de le prendre.

Game 2: 11 vs DL multiples menaces
30 portepestes avec 2 persos, 6 bêtes de sla, 6 de nurgle, 5 crushers, 3 mouches, 5 harpies en gros il arrive à prendre mon pack de craches plombs avec tyran sur une charge de crushers (il roule bien et gagne de 3 le càc). Je fais un bon massacre autour et prend l'objo (breakthrought). Par contre j'évite et chaff les portepestes que je ne peux pas prendre avec ma liste

Game 3: 5 vs OG
2 arach, 2 gnashers, 2x 5 squigs, 2x 40 gob avec 2x2 fana, 2 cata, 1 plongeur, 3 chars, 2 chariots à pompe, 2 x n2, 2 persos orcs, 40 orcs kostos, 1 géant sur capture the flags. Je diminue assez vite les arach à 2 pv chacune mais il arrive bien chaff mes 2 autres unités grâce aux fana et squigs. Du coup mes CP se trouvent combo charge par les arach et tombent. Mes VD avec perso ne pourront rien charger de la game car chaff tout du long et j'ai du craquer mes ogres pour essayer de gérer des chars et les 2 gnashers. On finit la game il me prend 1 flag moi j'arrive pas toucher les 3 packs donc objo lui et je laisse 1 arach à 1 pv et 1 géant à 1 pv.

Game 4: 11 vs EoS
Autel, 2x 40 hallebardiers, conseil lumière + n4 cieux, 1 charrette cieux, 2 canons avec ingé, 30 flagell, 5 cav scoring, 1 TAV, 2x 10 miliciens sur secure target. Je commence bien et fait peter l'autel au canon tour 3, le pack avec gb et mago saute en bas de la table à cause d'un 8 relance raté. Côté gauche je tue le tav aux mangeurs et 2pv au canon en début de game puis je gère la cav avec 3 ogres et les mangeurs au tir avant. Ma DS rate une panique à 9 relance tour 5 et se rallie tour 6 mais du coup me fait rater l'objo de droite. Sur celui de gauche hold up mon adv me tue 2 mdh au canon ce qui me fait rater l'objo de g et du coup perdre l'objectif. A savoir qu'il avait raté la charge avec 20 flagellants sur 4 mangeurs restants à 13 ps (on a lancé les dés après la game pour voir on se tue tout en simultané).

Game 5: 16 vs DL
Demons avec buveur, prince démon, 1 canon, 30 sangui, 2x 10 sangui, 4 crush, 2 x 5 chiens, 5 harpies. Un match fait pour ma liste je fais peter les 2 volants en combinant canons et mangeurs. Les craches avec relance toucher s'occupent des crushers. Je vais juste pas toucher les 30 sangui qui ont pu me prendre les CP par contre je nettoie tout le reste. Pas d'objo sur cette game capée à 17 max.

Globalement des résultats corrects. Le soucis c'est que je me suis pas senti en contrôle dans 4 games sur 5 (sauf la derrière qui est une auto win). Aucun moyen de vraiment influencer le cour des événements et trop dépendante du rendement du tir à mon avis. Le tyran et son unités sont trop light pour affronter du très costaud clairement. Comme j'ai que 3 scoring la moindre perte d'unité et c'est vite le drame ainsi qu'un net sous nombre. J'ai eu des situations notamment sur l'O&G ou je dois tourner les mdh pour gérer de l'arach et du coup me prendre une charge de dos de char (que j'explose mais qui font voler des figs). Les càc sont pas plutôt dur à engager avec l'absence d'une unité ultra forte et surtout sans pouvoir vraiment gagner le match du chaff qui est sport avec les ogres qui bougent à 12. Ils générent du traffic et peuvent chaff dans certaines situations mais c'est pas toujours le cas dans les moments chauds.

Personnellement je suis d'avis de partir plutôt sur une liste off que j'ai joué plusieurs fois en tournoi dont dernièrement à méroux (3ème). Je jouais full férox et je manquais un peu de punch. Du coup je vous propose la liste suivante:

Lords
Great Khan (180): Khagadai’s Maul (50), Mammoth-Hide Cloak (30), Trolleater (25), Dragonfire Gem (5), Divine Icon (15) = 305
Great Shaman (235): Level 4 (40) + Ring of Fire (25) + Dispell Scroll (35) = 325

Heroes
Khan (105): BSB (25), Dragonskin Banner (40), Rottenjaw (20) = 190

Core
12 Tribesmen (243): Ironfists (106), FC (30), Standard of Discipline (25) = 406
3 Tribesmen = 75
15 Scraplings (40): Standard Bearer (10) = 50
15 Scraplings (40): Standard Bearer (10) = 50
15 Scraplings (40): Standard Bearer (10) = 50

Special
4 Tuskers Cavalry (260): Standard Bearer (10), Musician (10), Ironfists (48) = 328
1 Sabretooth Tigers (40) = 40
1 Sabretooth Tigers (40) = 40
2 Yetis (80) = 80
2 Yetis (80) = 80

Rare
1 Roc Aurochs (240): Hunting Spear (0) = 240
1 Roc Aurochs (240): Hunting Spear (0) = 240

Total: 2499

3 unités de contre chaff / chaff (yétis x2 et 3 ogres) qui permettent au masto de pas se faire gêner avec leur frénésie, 2 chaff purs. Le n4 des cieux qui m'a totalement convaincu sur 2 gros tournois. La DS avec les buff (relance des 1 et poison) qui permet d'être super frais sur le centre notamment. un vrai tyran qui arrache n'importe quoi. Pour moi pas mal de matchs sont ouverts avec cette liste qui peut jouer sur tous les scénarios grâce aussi aux scraplings.

Je discute volontiers si vous avez des suggestions (ici ou via chan whattsapp etc)

Math-CD

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Re: Ogre Khans

Post  sevic on Sun 3 Jul - 20:45

Le seul point à discuter c'est une troisième yeti vs les 2 chiens. Tu n'auras pas bcp besoin de rediriger à mon avis et au pire 2 yeti ou les 3 ogres peuvent faire le taff. Je trouve que le troisième yéti à le potentielle de t'ouvrir plus de match.

Mais bon c'est du détail et j'aime beaucoup la liste. Wink


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