Debriefing ETC 2015

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Debriefing ETC 2015

Post  Dim on Fri 14 Aug - 15:32

Hello,

It was a lot of fun to play and drink with you guys over the week end.
Special mention to Xavier and François for the organization.

No reasons to be disappointed as far as I am concerned.

We played 2 very good teams: Austria and Greece (3rd last year), we proved that on play level we can actually be on par. We have to improve the dicing skill though  Rolling Eyes
We also played Netherlands, I won't call them very good for the sportsmanship reasons you know, because if you need this maybe you don't play so well. But they finished 4th, witch shows a serious metagame or dicing skill. (Or very good submarine crews).

It was sad that Raph could only play 2,5 games over the week end, I hope you are getting better!

On the level of the metagame and pairings, I think our mistake this time was to underestimate morghasts. We had a lack of good answers against vampires and tomb kings with loads of them.
The featherfoe tork would have been a nice addition in many armies, or more characters immun to killing blows.

The computer program for pairings worked really well, usually the estimations before each round were at least 90-70 for us. Many teams agreed on the fact that the pairing was good for us.
Also, we over estimated some of the match ups because we lacked training against some specific armies.

Which comes down to our biggest problem: the size of the Swiss community: I never saw a Hellebron, Kroak, Kairos or Morghast list in Switzerland before the ETC lists appeared! (Maybe also because I don't play enough tournaments, though)

For next year, I think that having a non playing captain would be a good idea:


  • Players can discuss with captain on how to approach the game before it starts.
    If the captain is playing, he will be focused in his game and it will difficult for him to help his players this way.
  • Players can use their 3 min break to seek advice when they have to take an important decision.
  • Captain can give "orders" like "attack more", "take no risks", ... anytime, depending on the situation on the other tables.
  • Captain/Coach have time to reread estimations in light of the game that already occurred, maybe also on other rows.
  • Captain can substitute a player in case of need.


The only thing I would change in my list would be to have a 4++ on the BSB, so that I can have it alone even when I play against death spells/warmachines.

Game 1: Wales, Daemons with Kairos, Blood and Glory.
The first problem was that my BSB died out of the winds of magic in the exact same turn one of my chariot had to pass a LD 8 test against chaos furies --> failed, caught, dead.
I underestimated the power of the plague bearer bus once boosted with Kairos magic. I let a charge of those guys in my demis, they breaked them in one turn and caught them right away.

Because of the blood and glory scenario, I only loose 7-13, when estimation was 11-9.
Point losts: BSB+ chariot = 2
Demis = 2

Game 2: Austria, High elves cavalry bus, King of the Hill

My army list is constructed to crush this list. the stubborn infantery + demis is supposed to work as anvil and hammer on the big knight block, while stank can only be killed by magic.
Also, Dwellers below are a serious threat to 18 knights + 5 characters.

I get turn 1, and use his dispel scroll on dwellers.
On his turn 1, he decided to rush me with his unit (18" move  Shocked ) but I had it all planned, with redirectors ready to get him. My tank disapears in an irresistible force pit of shade...

Turn 2, 1st dwellers get through, BSB and lvl 4 with crown (shadow) take the look out sir, the 2 other fighting characters succeed their S tests and the high mage dies. My opponent understand that staying in short range of the dwellers is a bad idea, he splits characters in ellyrian reavers units (lvl 4+1 fighting character) ( he can since stank is dead  Evil or Very Mad ) and get the knight unit back and closer to center.

Turn 3, My demis are getting into position for the center fight. My lvl4 cast dwellers with IF and cascades, with his scroll in his hands... Cavalry unit is down to 5 models, he takes center with it and adds the lvl4 with crown.
A flee move of free companies see one of my chariot test at ld 10 no reroll, failed, 10 distance to be out, I loose the Huricanum.

Turn 4 My demis are at 1" of the center, and 1" away from the knight bus, that is: lord, bsb with world dragon banner in 1st rank, 3 knights, and lvl4 of shadows in 2 ranks, 3 files.
He puts his balls on the table, charge the 7 demis with the unit and the frostheart phoenix... and IF the mindrazor. He get a 10 " charge with ellyrian reavers to block the counter charge of my BSB.

Turn 5 Franz flank charge the unit, since I hope to kill the BSB with demis. This is an insane risk, but the team is in deep shit.  
7 succeeded 4+ armor saves latter out of 8 with BSB, Franz dies against the prince, after inflicting D3 wounds though (a 1 on ward save can happen easily) --> 1 wound. Demis breaks after BSB dies against the 2*5 ellyrians in front and flank (loose by 1, test on 9 reroll, failed--> death)

The units has BSB with 1 LP, lord with 1LP, 1 knight + lvl4 shadows in the end of the game.

I loose 20-0, had estimated 14-6, with the taste of having been robbed by two IF's with perfect timing and a good deal of luck from my opponnent.
On the playing skill level, I think I had one move ahead of him during the game.

Other games to follow!

Dim
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Re: Debriefing ETC 2015

Post  Dim on Fri 14 Aug - 18:02

Game 3: Lizardmen, Hungary, King of the Hill

My opponents deploy badly, with his main combat unit far on the flank and his 2 old blood in front of stank. I cannon shoot the first one in turn 1, and will never kill the 2nd one.
From turn 2 onwards his 2nd old blood is fighting against the 5 demis. He will survive with 1 LP.

I take center and couple of skinks units/ redirectors. 15-5, with estimation 14-6.

Game 4: Wood elves, Netherlands, King of the Hill

I had estimated 12-8 because of King of the Hill and because there were no waywatchers. But they were 3*10 kurnous, I think I underestimated them.
8 of them will kill the 7 demis. On the skill level, I was not impressed:

Turn 2, he gave me a cannon shot on his 3 characters without look out sir. I misfired.
Also, he decided to prevent me to charge a redirector eagle in turn 2 because I made before the move of my steam tank on the other side of the table. Bad sportsmanship, and my mistake of course.

No one will hold the center at the end of the game.

7-13

Game 5: Tomb king, Latvia, King of the Hill

Perfect game for me, I kill every single model without loosing any points in 5 turns. My opponent helped me  Shocked  by charging the 7 demis + 2 pegasus with his 10 morghasts in his turn 1.

Estimation: 15-5 Result 20-0

Game 6: Brettonnia, Greece King of the Hill

The player is Piotr Debkowski, former Brettonnia player of Poland during 6 ETC, 3 of which he won. The estimation was 10-10, because I know it is a Warhammer game: everyone has tools to beat the opponent. From his word, his only problem is Karl Franz. My problems are the killing blow lord and the gauntlet of duel pegasus.

My opponent plays the game rather aggressively, (16" move 1st turn + all characters on pegasus 20").
I manage the impact.

The turning point of the game is when my 2 files conga of halleberdiers are engaged against 5 knights + lvl4 on the front and 4 pegasus knights in the flank. I sent Franz alone on the flank of said knights, stank on the back of the pegasus and one chariot in the front. Pegasus managed to survive with some good 5++ ward and a good flee move, while the knights are still steadfast (1 rank, thanks to a 6++ ward against franz out of 3 hits) Thus, the pegasus with gautlet that was blocked by some of my redirectors can charge the halleberdiers, kills the lvl4 (no more champ at that point) depite the 5++ regen on the unit.

Franz get 3 hits, there are only 2 knights left... and my opponnent rolls 3 6++ wards. The surviving knights cause 3 wounds on the halleberds, instead of my pegasus causing wounds on the lvl4... I loose combat, Franz flee (and later rallies), halleberds stay and die heroically.

I will not get that last knight (pegasus killed one), nor the lvl 4, nor the pegasus knights, all of them will end up with 1 LP at the end of the game.
Towards the center, the green knight is blocking the demis for 4 combat turns, despite my standard + rank + musician that should make him loose 1LP per turn unless he gets in a killing spree (I have 7 demis (one with 1LP) at start of the fight, and he has 4A S6). I will kill him twice (once with Franz, loosing 1 turn) and once with demis, on my 6th turn. It is then too late to prevent my opponent to take the center. As a cherry on top of the cake, the Green knight reappears on his turn 6, on a 5+ Sad

My opponent paid me a beer for his luck and we exchanged shirts. He said to me I was the toughest game he played iat ETC this year, so I cannot be too sad, although the game slept from my hands again...

3-17

Dim
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Re: Debriefing ETC 2015

Post  Pulps on Tue 1 Sep - 8:24

Thanks for the feedback dim!

I totally agree and support your first two points:

-amaizing job with the estimations: it demands a lot of time for the players to fill them up, although it's the time that every player should spend to study the opponent list's, and the outcome clearly shows how well it works.
- Non-player captain: as you said, it would not be a "+" in our team but a "must have" instead. I don't play the etc regularely, yet the discussion already appeard in the last years. I think we have a great captain and two full-supporting coaches. although a coach-captain, a role that you described very well, is a great lack in our team.

It would be great to start a discussion with this issue as soon as possible: It's a bit soon to start yelling out names in the air and one does not have to forget that playing is always nice, but I see you in pole position for this though spot ^^

I have to admit it, I was quite doubtful concerning your list at first, but the final result showed that I was mistaken and indeed some very good choices have been made cheers . The only point where I'm still wondering is the L4 life with 2 very important equips "scroll and crown" and supposed to cast  on 5 dices the dwellers: Ofc we can argue on that for hours and at the end its maybe more a "risk" that I would rather avoid to play, even if its a small and manageable one.

On the top of your debrief it looks that the "greek" bret played it out very well in the cc. Without have been seeing the match its quite difficult to understand some choices,but woulldn't have been better for him to challenge karl with the L4 in order to be sure to stay steadfast in your turn?

Otherwise I think that you did very good result despite of, as you said, some lack of interpretation of some games. Great job!!

Pulps

PS.: The other issue you raised, the lack of pool player in Switzerland, it's also quite important to my eyes, but in my opinion its better to accept it and work with it (with the players we have in our small pool) rather than looking to expand the pool.


Pulps

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Re: Debriefing ETC 2015

Post  Dim on Sat 5 Sep - 10:56

woulldn't have been better for him to challenge karl with the L4 in order to be sure to stay steadfast in your turn?

No, because he would have lost his lvl4 for sure. The unit was already lost at that point (although it was not in the end) It was quite doable to stay steadfast 4A on 3+, 6+ wards, killing 2-3 is a reasonable outcome. I killed 2 with KF and 1 with hallberdiers in the end.

Not doing this challenge was giving him 1 more magic phase, to cast things like -1 to hit, reroll 6's, reroll 1's which are very important for him for the CC.


The only point where I'm still wondering is the L4 life with 2 very important equips "scroll and crown" and supposed to cast on 5 dices the dwellers: Ofc we can argue on that for hours and at the end its maybe more a "risk" that I would rather avoid to play, even if its a small and manageable one.

This is true, but there is also the throne of vines.
I prefered the 2 boost wagon to more mages. I really think that those wagons are extremely good.
Even without mage, with the +1 dispel dice you can dispel effectively.

For instance for the mindrazor that ruined my 2nd game, it is limited to 4 dice for casting.
So if he does a 5 or 6 (55%) you get 6 or 7 dispel dices against 4, so even with the +4 that's fine. It's edgy with a 4 (20%)
Things get complicated with only 3's or less, but this is only 25% chances.
Anyway, he got IF Laughing

These were the reason I took the wagons instead of mage. The price to pay is that sometimes you think twice before casting the dwellers.

Dim
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Re: Debriefing ETC 2015

Post  Pulps on Mon 7 Sep - 9:31

Dim wrote:
No, because he would have lost his lvl4 for sure. The unit was already lost at that point (although it was not in the end) It was quite doable to stay steadfast 4A on 3+, 6+ wards, killing 2-3 is a reasonable outcome. I killed 2 with KF and 1 with hallberdiers in the end.

Not doing this challenge was giving him 1 more magic phase, to cast things like -1 to hit, reroll 6's, reroll 1's which are very important for him for the CC.

Ok I got it: I did not read that he only had 6 models left (5 knights and the L4) and forget about the 3 knight rank for bret. Well played there.


Dim wrote:
These were the reason I took the wagons instead of mage. The price to pay is that sometimes you think twice before casting the dwellers.

I like the double chariots too its not bad. Although, as you said, you have to think twice before taking 5 dices for a dwellers Very Happy

Pulps

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Re: Debriefing ETC 2015

Post  Dim on Mon 7 Sep - 11:07

Yes, it was a tough choice. But I think I would redo the same choice. really, +1 dice per magic phase is awesome.

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