Proposition of metagame

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Proposition of metagame

Post  Xavier on Mon 5 May - 15:34

I'm just putting here how far we are at the moment, to have a better overall view and so everyone can follow.
I need to figure out where are our weaknesses and if we are too strong in some parts of the metagame.

I still don't know what deamons are we going to play, same for Skaven.
And we still don't know if the restrictions for WE will be too loose or too harsch. But I think maybe having three times elves might not be optimal in the metagame. Ogers give us some push against some armies and might be welcome for that (they are also very stable)

About Paul, it's still a question of what is he going to play?
I suggest Dwarves. They are a really nice roadblock and very safe in my opinion, and he's the most experienced with them.
Other choice are Chaos dwarves or Orcs. CHD are suboptimal in a way we already have 2x death.
About Orcs, why not? It all depends on what we want. I would totally go for Orcs as well, assuming that Paul can put a lot of effort in the training. I think Paul has a word to say on the choice (Dwarves or OG) both being good in my opinion  Smile 



1) Xavier Panchard - VC
1 Vampire Lord: General, Level 4, Vampires, Red Fury, Flying Horror, Earthing Rod, Dragonhelm, Potion of Foolhardiness, Talisman of Preservation, Great weapon, Heavy Armour, Summon Creatures of the Night 516
1 Necromancer: Vampires, Dispell Scroll, Obsidian Ring 105
1 vampire BSB, Heavy armour, flying horror, enchanted shield, book of arkhan, dragonbane gem 159
1 cairn wraith 60
20 Zombies: M 65
20 Zombies: M 65
2x 8 Dire Wolves 2x64
35 Crypt Ghouls: Ghast, 360
2x 10 HexWraiths: Hellwraith, 2x310
3x2 fellbats 96
1 Terrorgheist: 225
Total: 2400

2) Victor Rossier - HE
Archmage: General, Level4, Death, Earthing Rod, MR 2
Archmage: Level4, life , Book of Hoeth, stubborn
Noble: BSB, 147 magic bow streagh potion
3 x 10 Archers: Musician, 110
2x 5 Ellyrian Reaver, 80
5 helms
28 White Lion: FCG, Banner of World Dragon
20 Phoenix Guards : FCG, Banner of Discipline
3x 1 Bolt thrower: 70
2x 1 Great Eagle: 50

3) Andy Geiser - DE
1 Supreme sorceress lvl 4  death ,dispel scroll,  stupborn  280
1 Supreme sorceress,  lvl 4 , DAGUE , ring of hotel , LIFE   290 ( general )
1 Master, Dark pegasus, Battle Standard Bearer , shield, lance ,  armor of destiny  213
1 Master,  dark pegasus , heavy armor, shield, Sea dragon cloak, lance , Black Dragon egg    188
1 Master: Dark Pegasus  Hand Weapon, Heavy Armor , Lance , Sea Dragon Cloak , Shield  Cloak of Twilight 188
5 Dark riders, repeater crosbows champion standart shield 120
5 Dark riders, repeater crosbows shield 100
5 Dark riders , repeater crosbow  95
20 darkshades , MSC , STANDART OF DISCILINE 285
3 Reaper Boltthrower 3x70
22 Har Ganeth executionners, musician , standart , champion  
5 Doomfire warlocks 125

4) Dimitri Zaganidis - Empire
1 Grand Master on Barded Warhorse: general, full plate armor, Runefang, Charmed Shield, Luckstone, Potion of Speed 255
1 Battle Wizard Lord on Warhorse: Lvl 4, Life, Obsidian lodestone, crown of command, sceptre of stability 313
1 Captain of the Empire on Barded Warhorse: BSB, great weapon, full plate armor, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, The other's trickster shard 163 pts
1 Battle Wizard on Warhorse: lvl 2, Death, dispel scroll 137
1 Battle Wizard on Warhorse: Light 77
13 Knights of the Inner Circle: FCG, standard of discipline 370
5 knights, musician 120
5 knights, 110
2 cannons 240
4 demi-gryphs 232
1 Celestial Huricannum 130
1 Steam Tank: 250
Total: 2397pts

5) Arnaud Abt - Ogers
1 Slaughtermaster; General; Magic Level 4; Lore of Beasts; Crown of Command; Talisman of Endurance; Earthing Rod; Charmed Shield @ 380.0 Pts
1 Bruiser; Great Weapon; Light Armour; Battle Standard; Rune Maw Banner @ 201.0 Pts
1 Butcher; Magic Level 1; Lore of the Great Maw; Dispel Scroll; Dragonbane Gem @ 130.0 Pts
9 Ironguts; Look-Out Gnoblar; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Gutlord; Musician; Standard; Standard of Discipline @ 437.0 Pts
3 Ogres; Light Armour @ 90.0 Pts
10 Gnoblars @ 25.0 Pts
10 Gnoblars @ 25.0 Pts
10 Gnoblars @ 25.0 Pts
7 Maneaters; Poisoned Attacks; Scouts; 7xOgre Pistol; light armour; Captain; Musician; Standard; Gleaming Pendant @ 434.0 Pts
5 Mournfang Cavalry; Iron Fist; Heavy Armour; Musician; Standard; Dragonhide Banner @ 420.0 Pts
1 Sabretusk Pack @ 21.0 Pts
1 Sabretusk Pack @ 21.0 Pts
1 Sabretusk Pack @ 21.0 Pts
1 Ironblaster @ 170.0 Pts

6) Kris Leibundgut - Deamons
Loc lvl 4, 75p and 25p present
BSB regeneration, Razorstandart
12 Horrors with M
31 Plaguebearers, +1LS, MSC
4 BoN
2x1 BoN
2x5 Gargs with Nurgle
2x4 Drohnes poison 2x Standard, 1x Flamebanner

7) Stefan Wanger - Skaven
???

Cool Paul Berclaz - ???
???
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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  AndyGeiser on Mon 5 May - 17:25

and why arnaud don't play chaos dwarf … i really don't like ogres with this tip of list

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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  KrogGar on Tue 6 May - 6:11

Chaosdwarfs work the best with deathmagic, but we allready reached the limit with the HE and DE playing Deathmagic.
But basically the Chaosdwarfs also work well with the own lore (Hashut). So we could also think about some concepts with them.

The problem is, that nobody thinks about concepts for them =)

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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Xavier on Tue 6 May - 6:36

Because apart from Paul some times in training, nobody ever played them Smile
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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  darksteve on Tue 6 May - 7:20

With the 6 armies from above, how many blocker and how many scorrer do we have?
Which task should the remaining two armies fulfill? Skaven can be very defensiv and nasty for pairing when we take the double-cannon, but it's quite a dicy game and can go wrong in some matchups. The bell list would be more stable, has potential to score high and can still be good to not loose too much. I will write some list soon, after the tourney in Bern where I play Vampires.

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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Xavier on Tue 6 May - 7:34

I'd say the perfect blocker is HE so we would need one additional blocker.
We have in general very versatile lists, so we cod have one that is a bit more specialized.
I think Orcs would be great to counter WoC.

I think the game is now played with too many warmachines to really play the bell, don't you think?
I would better see a list with lots of gutters (ex 3x6) , strong magic and double canon. Since we deal quite well with Ogers and WoC, double wheel might not be necessary.
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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  darksteve on Tue 6 May - 8:34

We can play 3x Gutters also in the bell-list, and if the maps allows to hide the bell in the first turn, than the list can also play against some warmachines. But we have to test it, of course. With less death-magic the double-cannon of course gets more attractive.

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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Dim on Tue 6 May - 9:58

I think that the Chaos dwarfs list I posted is quite good, without death lore.
We should test it!

It showed up in France meta for the 6 nation and also in the 1D6 team for qualifiers, (second best team).
It also showed up in northern ireland meta for 6 nations.

In also think we need more shadow lore, to counter efficiently the low I big toughness stuff.

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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  AndyGeiser on Wed 7 May - 6:45

xavier tu peux mettre le bouclier enchanté sur ton général ? ça t'oblige a en levé un truc mais … je serais plus serein …  cyclops 

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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Xavier on Thu 8 May - 11:38


Btw I see the Ogers better with Heaven magic  Smile 
With heaven, the list is definitely very good, stable and defensive, and able to play offensive if good matchups  Smile 

In also think we need more shadow lore, to counter efficiently the low I big toughness stuff.

We have Empire, Orcs, 2x death lore, Skaven... I don't think shadow lore is needed anywhere  Smile 

xavier tu peux mettre le bouclier enchanté sur ton général ? ça t'oblige a en levé un truc mais … je serais plus serein …

haha we'll see  Very Happy 
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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  polux on Thu 8 May - 13:36

Ogre seem a nice idea but not offensiv for me, I'd prefer them as a more stable army than a all-in one wich would be a lot more risked. Like the shooty ogre that arnaud play sometimes.

But concerning the army played by every player I have a little comment, here are the choice suggested by Xavier:

1) Xavier Panchard - VC
2) Victor Rossier - HE
3) Andy Geiser - DE
4) Dimitri Zaganidis - Empire
5) Arnaud Abt - Ogers
6) Kris Leibundgut - Deamons
7) Stefan Wanger - Skaven
8)Paul Berclaz - ???

I prefer too always choose a mastered army instead of a good army that is not as good controlled by the play. In that way seeing victor playing HE as he usually play DE , since Andy has much more experience with HE and Victor is a very good DE wouldn't be better to switch them? Same for Xavier, I just feel that this is a bit of a gamble to lost one of our army that was very very stable and totally mastered by his player, even thought VC are maybe better.

For my part I still love Dwarves and it would be a pleasure for me to play them (with the gyrocopter I think they are much stronger). Orc would be perfect too, very defensiv and stable, I'm not an excellent orc player but I have more than one month of holiday to train. CHD I don't know, maybe it's the worst since it's a kind of a Dwarf list with monster. If we don't just abuse with the Iron Deamon restriction I don't Know if they are better than Dwarves (even thought 3 warmachine + Kdaii seem very stable.)
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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  AndyGeiser on Thu 8 May - 16:42

we just have to decide as soon as possible for doing a lot of training Wink that it Wink .
dwarf , chaos dwarf , its the same … it's your choice …
xavier have to play vc because , we already have a cavalry army who is afraid against OG … and he have time to do some training … but if xavier is not convience of course he have to play bret but i don't think soo

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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  darksteve on Thu 8 May - 17:56

we just have to decide as soon as possible for doing a lot of training
Totally agree. Smile

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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Xavier on Fri 9 May - 9:04


It seems like we agreed on all the armies anyway  Very Happy 



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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  darksteve on Fri 9 May - 9:08

Ok, then I would like to clarify some questions:

- Who can play against empire with light-show?
- Who can play against demons?
- Who can play against hexwraith list?
- Who can play against fast elves-lists? DE or WE?
- Chaos dwarves? I think hexwraith can, but that needs a try.

Anything missing? When we are able to answer such questions I can try to write the skavens to fill holes Wink

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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Dim on Fri 9 May - 16:22

Other questions:

Who can play against orcs and goblins?
(me no :)I think I score 5 against them...)

For my empire roaster:
Who can play against empire with light-show?

I think the mathcup is at my advantage, because of the restrictions:
-either only one wizard lvl4 with the war altar, in that case banishment is S4-5, so not a big trouble for knights.
-either more light wizard, but restriction means that opponent will have less cannons than I have.
-death/life combination might be problematic for him.

- Who can play against demons?

I don't see any problemt. I have 1lvl1 light to cast 2D6 S6 on the great daemon if he goes out Smile+ sun if I am lucky :)But hard to make better than 10 against daemons...

- Who can play against hexwraith list?

It is difficult for me, shit can really happen. Have to train it to really know how bad it can be.

- Who can play against fast elves-lists? DE or WE?

It should be ok for me if there is no double lvl4. Any of life/death/shadows/metal combination can be dangerous for the bus but I should not loose more severly than 8 if there is not too much executionners/white lions.

-
Chaos dwarves? I think hexwraith can, but that needs a try.
For chaos dwarves, I am not bad only because I have 3 canons and death. Needs play testing also to see the limits.

For hexwraiths, if some of the iron daemons are hellbound, it is very difficult (magical shooting).

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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Xavier on Sun 11 May - 11:20

- Who can play against empire with light-show?
--> Brets can
- Who can play against demons?
->> Brets can
- Who can play against hexwraith list?
->> Brets can
- Who can play against fast elves-lists? DE or WE?
--> Brets can
- Chaos dwarves? I think hexwraith can, but that needs a try.
--> Brets can

 Laughing 
Maybe we should still take them in the end
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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  AndyGeiser on Sun 11 May - 12:01

we are not gone see zoo much hex wraith list , empire full light
demon is not a problem for many army …
xavier with bretonnien i'm not sur you good against new WE and DE with executioners ...

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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  2dipicche on Sun 11 May - 18:59

Xavier wrote:- Who can play against empire with light-show?
- Who can play against fast elves-lists? DE or WE?
--> Brets can

No they can't. Do you know that ww now shots no armour saves arrows??
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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Xavier on Sun 11 May - 20:42

Haha I was probably exagerating a bit  Very Happy 

But I'm sure that with heaven magic and 3x pegasus this matchup is very doable. I only need to kill the WW with heaven magic and trebuchets and finish them off with pegasus (two units put in front of them, he cannot do much (if he moves, with long rang + move + skirmish he hits on 5+ and wounds on 5+ and so even 20 WW would only kill 1 pegasus).

Once they are dead, I there is basically nothing he can really do  Smile 

It needs testing, but I'm pretty sure the matchup is not as bad as I first thought it was.
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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Murglud on Mon 12 May - 12:15

Xavier je pense qu'avec des Bretonniens, tu te fait doser par un bon Elfe noir et par un elfe sylvains,

Les Forestiers te mettent la misère, et une liste bien jouée d'Elfes noir avec 3 perso sur pegase tu auras du mal à la prendre

Tjrs AMHA :-)

A++
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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Xavier on Mon 12 May - 14:48

Doser par un Elfe noir?
A part la liste atypique de Arnaud et son test à 3 réussi sur ses SF qui lui sauve sa partie, j'ai fait 20-0, 18-2, 14-6 et 20-0 dans mes matchs contre des Elfes Noires. Certes pas contre les meilleurs joueurs de la terre, mais le type avec ses gars en string il en chie quand même un peu devant le Bret s' il n'a pas un gros pack d'exé (et là encore, il perdra le combat sans être tenace si je charge avec mon autobus, sans compter qu'il va apprécier les galettes F5 des trebs) Very Happy

L'Elfe Sylvain j'aimerais tester, car je suis pas aussi sûr que ça que je me fasse doser, à part les forestiers il y a rien qui me fasse peur ou qui arrête 3 unités de pégases. Et il souffre face à 2 trebs comme tous les elfes.

Quand aux pégases, s' il vient faire le malin c'est trompette et prise en étui. Le joueur irlandais s' en souvient quand il a pris son 20-0  Very Happy 
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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Murglud on Tue 13 May - 6:25

La liste d'Arnaud n'est pas si atipique que sa lol  Very Happy 

Non sérieusement, je pense qu'une liste avec les 4 types sur pégases (comme j'ai posté dans la section listes d'armée) et une niveau 4 de l'ombre.
Tu la sens passé :-) J'aimerais bien te le prouver mais tu habite un peu loin :-)

Par contre pour les ES, faut déjà penser juste aux 20 forestiers.
A longue portée, ils te font en moyennes 13-14 touches, ce qui fait en moyenne toujours 6-7 blessures, donc en moyenne encore, 5-6 mort dans tes pack.  Very Happy 
Il n'y as pas trop photo quand même :-) c'est super violent :-)
Après pour les pégases, une saturation de tir dessus et il reste pas grand chose,

Enfin dommage que je ne puisse pas te le montrer sur table, :-)

toujours mon humble petit avis lol

P.S Ta liste bret est quand même superbe, ce que je veut dire c'est que ce n'est pas des match gagné d'avance je pense


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Re: Proposition of metagame

Post  Dim on Wed 14 May - 13:54

Just something for Xavier's vampire list:

i don't think the flying on the BSB is that usefull. Maybe having -1LD can be a good option? (For terror gheist howl... Smile )

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