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I haven't read it yet, first I wanted to post it here

Seems like quite a few tougher restrictions for most armies, but looks somewhat balanced at first glance. Will be an interesting choice for the teams army composition now.

I like it the most. Exept to few restrictions on that stupid worlddragon banner

But still HE will be weaker then last year, except in certain matchups like against Daemons.

With the new draft and some new armybooks, is there already a list of potential candidates? Which armies do you see as a must-have, which are dead and which are good or bad candidates?

To me must haves are:

WoC
Empire
DoC
Bretonia
O&G
(DE in case this stupid stubborn trick works)

good candidates should be:

Dwarfs and Vampires and to an extent Beastmen

Dead armies to me are:

TK and Lizards


That would be my first impression

What do you mean by the "stubborn trick"?

Vampire are in the must have in my opinion.
What about Skavens? They seems pretty good to me, even if I can't tell in what extend the restrictions hit them.

The stubborn trick means, that by the current wording, it's possible to make a unit stubborn, if it contains an assassin and the assassin is in 12" to the cauldron. Should be clarified with the judges

Skaven are in my opinion no candidate. I think daemons, empire and WoC are almost impossible matchups in my opinion. And also HighElves which were a good matchup last year, are now probably much harder. That's why I think, that they have to few matchups were they can score. And for a blockerarmy, there are probably better candidates.

@Dim

Why do you think Vampires are a must have now?
Imo their magical power and survivability have taken quite a hit with restrictions as they are. Now they can only be built to have a very specific role and the number of bad matchups has risen while the margin on good matchups has become smaller.
Do not get me wrong - they are still good, but there are others that could fill their role to an equal extent imo - so what specifically makes them a must have?

In my opinion, with the rise of monstruous cavalry, 2*10 hexwraiths can be game breaking, especially against:
WOC, Empire, Ogers, bretonnians.

Vampire are good against shooty armies as dwarves or Orcs and goblins.

Moreover, I think that they can also be played defensively in a way that it is hard to score high against them.

So good defensive possibilities + some very good matchup.

But maybe I am overestimating them.

That mainly holds true under the old restrictions - I think you will find that much harder under the new comp.

WoC will find the 20 Hexwraiths very amusing - they will actually like that matchup very much since their Lords/heroes will be as fast and nearly immune to their flaming attacks. They also have various choices against the fighting Vampirelord. I would like to have Gabs, Stefans and Alans opinion on that, but to me that matchup is quite bad for the Vampire - the only dangerous thing would be a Therrorgheist here.

In regard to Dwarves - I think that an anvil list will have quite some good chances against 20 hexwraiths imo and with the new restrictions most dwarves will field the anvil again.

Bretonians are also not so easy a prey, especially when they field Paladins on Pegs with magic weapons.

So yes, Vampires still have some good matchups and yes they have quite some defensive capabilities, but so have other armies, why I am syaing they are good but not mandatory any more.

To me, with the current restrictions the best 8 armies to field are:

Empire -> we've got a good player and a good list
Bret -> same here, and the army is one of the best in the restrictions with OG
Chaos -> same here, also very good
Vampire -> we've got an experienced player, which is better with them than with any other one
OG -> must have, and Pulp knows how to handle them
Dwarves -> The lists imho works pretty well, yet it is necessary to field the anvil...
Dark Elves -> might be replaced by shooty WE if the trick is banned, but Victor can play both
Deamons -> ho fiducia

I think this set of restrictions make the choice even clearer, because imho Dwarves are now better than Chaos Dwarves.

We have very stable armies, some aggressive scorers and some armies that can easily bunker(Deamons, Brets, Vampires)

In fact, I agree with Buchi. Beastmen are good to some extent as well, but we have no player on them if Alan plays Deamons (and he's much more experienced with them). It's just sad for the Khemris, I really saw the army well

About vampires, what are you thinking about this concept for metagame :

Vampire lord lvl4 lore of vampire
Vampire lvl2 - lore of light - nightshroud
Vampire lvl2 - lore of light
Necomancer - lore of vampire - book of arkhan

3X5 wolfs
30 zombis
30 zombis
30 skeletons

2x2 fell bats
8-10 crypt horrors

2X5 wraits

I don't think there is a really bad matchups for this army. Lore of light could be an option to count about with this list : in a defensive option as an offensive : WS10 I10 on wraits/horrors, -1 for hit, net of amyntok, Timewarp... And even with the wraits, i think this list is hard for some DoC built : i don't think that all the list with Lord of change can come : no dsipell against two signature spell 2d6 S6 and the bannishing 3d6 S5 i think is a suicide ( 48ps of range..... ).

I'm sorry for the hexwraits, but they can not be a serious option because of dragonhelm and draconcide gem, just look in our armies how many have it ....

For me here are my feelings about the armys:

Bretonnia: Still a very good army, i think we sould take them
Beastmen: I think Beastmen are not that bad bat i dont get happy with them. even with all the free stuff. i think there are armys that are stronger there,
Chaos Dwarfs: Good but weaker than normal dwarfs
Dark Elves: Still a very good army also a candidat for played armys, even better if the stupid stubborn move is not banned.
Demons: I think one of the strongest armys you can field at this draft.
Dwarfs: As sayed better then CD but no way to play without anvil.
Empire: again in the top 5 of all armys as every year
High elves: I think you can build pretty good lists here, i will try to test some things here
Lizardmen: Dead, they have so many bad matchups and are restricted to the bone.
Ogre Kingdom: Weaker than last year but you have still some very good matchups
O&G: One of the Best Armys you can field now, have like no bad matchups and can win almost every game
Skaven: Dead aswell, they suffer to hard from the restrictions and the new books.
Tomb Kings: Got killed with the last Errata
VC: I have to say im not sure about vamps, i think they have a lot of bad matches and the 2+ firewards suffer them hard
WoC: Mostly the Strongest Army right now.
Wood Elves: A verry good shooting Army but fight there place with darkelves.


So for me the top armys we should take:

WoC
Demons
Empire
O&G
Bretonia
Dwarfs/Chaos Dwarfs (But since normal dwarfs are better we should take normal dwarfs)

The armys to think about:

Wood elves or Dark elves: Same purpose so it depends on viktor here what he thinks is better
Vamps: I think they suffer against all the Top 5 armys exept O&G so im not that sure here.
Ogres: Same problem as Vamps. Exept that they suffer against Orcs aswell, but not that hard against WoC
Beastmen: To be honest i just dont like them so no comment here
Highelves: The book is pretty new but i think you can make some pretty evil things here
Dwarfs/Chaos Dwarfs (But since normal dwarfs are better we should take normal dwarfs)

Dead Armys:

Skaven
Lizards
Tomb Kings

El Dorte : (you forgot bretonia in the top five no?)

Wood elves and Dark elves have clearly not the same role for me. DE (with lore of metal) are good where WE aren't, like against well armoured lists. Whereas WE are fine against O&G, VC, where DE are in trouble. Both are click armies (especially DE with some really good match up and some really bad)
I just want to add than WE suffer a lot from the top armies (exept O&G)

I still don't know wich lore is better in a DE list with cauldron of blood : Metal or Death? What do you think?

For the lists you all proposed, I agree (I just don''t think skavens are dead)

Yeah true i forgot the Bretonians fuck

i would say Metal on DE cause of all the good armoured Top armys

Skaven imo are not "dead" but they are only one of many now. Sadly the new books are always getting the better of them under the current restrictions which are throttling their potential substentially.

The latest setup for the Vampires proposed by Gab seems pretty interesting to me - I suppose that could work quite well against a lot of armies. Would like to see a complete list very much. But great idea so far!

I would like to have Gabs, Stefans and Alans opinion on that, but to me that matchup is quite bad for the Vampire - the only dangerous thing would be a Therrorgheist here.

Fully agree with you. The only dangerous thing is the terrorgheist. And for the warrior player it's ok, to sacrifice 300-400 points to kill the beast, since the rest of the army can ripe the vampires really hard.

My impression so far pretty similar to the given ones.

Must have:
- WoC
- DoC
- Bretonia
- O&G
- Empire

Good Candidates (in rougly this order):
- Dwarfs
- Highelves (I believe them to be better than the old book under the condition that the light spam is not allowed)
- Vampire

- Ogre Kingom
- Darkelves
- Chaos Dwarves
- Wood Elves
- Skaven

I totally agree on what you said for the top armies ( and I'm really happy that they trow this stupid dwarf restriction ^^).

But for the vampire I'm a little bit more opptimistic than you , maybe not all the list but against the top armies that are well armored the cavalry list with str 8 lord can be useful like against:

Must have:
- WoC
- DoC
- Bretonia
- O&G
- Empire

all except OandG (I'm not sure for daemon but I think the 2+save is ok against the full flying and the lord kill the nurgle beast => the problem is the lord with metal)
So it can be good counter against the top army but weak against metal, and we still have the full horror list that is very very resilient no?

Like Dim it seems you seem to misunderstand what was stated about Vampires - nobody said, they are not good (enough) anymore. We only wanted to make you aware, that Vampires are not a must have anymore.
Nonetheless under the actual restrictions and under the conditions of players and army availability for the Swiss team Vampires will still be in the team. So why argue about semantics?

So why argue about semantics?

Because we are stubborn Swiss

I always thought that was a german "quality"...

No the German quality is ignorance

Sadly there is no army left over for me to play

Did I hear something?

Buchi you do not count you're not a real german

Then it looks like im gonna be nonplaying Coach, or do you want me to test some other armys? I could take a look at ogres or lizards. Maybe highelves. But with highelves i played last like 10 years ago